Israel: What about Torah?

[irarg]

It appears to me that much emphasis in the "modern orthodox" is put on zionism. But how about Torah? Yes it is true that most schools have just as much Limudei Kodesh as english and they daven two or three times a day depending on the schedule and they "try their best" to instill in all the students a love for Torah and Mitzvos. However if Chas Vishalom a good Yid goes off the Derech and let's say does not fulfill the Mitzvos and messed up his Hashkafa what does the school do about it? for example: not uttering a word during Tefillah and not making Brachos on the Tefillin (and for some the Talis) and the faculty all they do is say "well, as long as you're not being disruptive to others that fine. we would like you to daven but just don't be a disturbance." or for example let's say someone Chas Vishalom makes it public knowledge that he does not acknowledge the omnipetence of Hashem the faculty might try to do something, but overall they don't bug him/her about it.
But Israel, Ahhh Israel! notice i'm calling it Israel not Eretz Yisroel. Israel is the secular name by the way. If one makes an outright comment that he thinks we shouldn't have Israel the teacher would make a huge deal out of it. They talk about all the pressures that are facing good Jewish children to be anti-israel, but they don't talk about the pressures that are facing true Yiddeshkeit out there. I don't believe that a discussion about Israeli politics should be put in the middle of Gemora and Chumash. It's not holy. it's politics. that's it. Ivrit should be put in secular subjects not "holy subjects".
It's the Torah which should be the primary focus not Israel. Hashem only gave Eretz Yisroel to us if we shall obserev His Mitzvos. We should be giving just as much respect, if not more, to those that are giving up their time and money to spend their entire day immersed in the study of Torah instead of spending all the time talking about non religious israel soldiers. i'm not saying they shouldn't get respect, but come on, one that is learning in Kollel and is spending his entire time learning and learning and learning the Holy Torah and Mesorah that Hashem gave to Moshe Rabeinu on Har Sinai, the essence of our being, THE HOLY TORAH should get the utmost of respect. But guess what. in the modern orthodox world in the schools they teach if you're going to live a hard life learning all day you shouldn't. that is true only if you will be begging for money and you have a big family. but if you have a hard life and not miserable one you should be learning all day. it is the greatest job. as a Mishnah in Pirkei Avos says: "you should eat bread dipped in salt, and drink water by measurement...and in the Torah you shall labor." AMEILUS BATORAH! I don't believe the Chareidim are doing a bad thing by not going to the army. They are learning the HOLY TORAH. WAKE UP! HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Hashem gave us the Torah not guns while they eat pig fat and shoot guns on Shabbos.

[kiyara]

you are right, its controversial. but you cant make a blanket statement about those in the army who arent in the special chareidi group as eating pig- i mean there are plenty of people who learn torah and also serve to defend israel.


i agree, there should be a distincton made b/t the importance of the physical land, and then of human life. (wait - thats a diff argument. whatever.)

I think that maybe ppl are more into the israel ideal because its easier to related to, its more in our time, and its feasible. we can go there for the most part. we cant go and have a chat with noah or see any kind of crazy miracle ot converse with God, so it seems like just old stories that could just be all allegorical. oh wait - but the importance of israel is based in the Torah- that would be a hole in my argument. i guess im tired.

but i hear you. the thing is, i (and others) always just play devils advocate, so that could be ther eason your asking this Q. (not a dig)

[Blink]

yea i agree wid alot of wut u say, the Torah is e/thing, not Israel.

I personnally dont assiciate myself wid any type of group as there all bad in their own ways

[irarg]

you just proved my point. by saying that it's the modern and secular israel that is easier to relate to than Torah. and yes the basis of the argument is really if Eretz Yisroel is based on Torah or as Jews all we should focus on is Israel Israel Israel. and there are many camps like that today. their names i will not mention but i'm sure many of you know what camps i'm referring to. that they only have about half an hour of "shiur" with boys and girls mixed... but all the activities revolve around Israel. If the modern orthodox community makes Torah the priority then it will be easier for the modern orthodox youth and young adults to view Israel through Torah eyeglasses not secular ones. I'm not blaming the victims for this. the modern orthodox children, teenagers, and young adults are all victims of this. In my opinion it is the schools, camps and organizations which are to be blamed for taking putting Israel as more of a priority than Torah. the best thing to happen would be to focus on Eretz Yisroel as a gift from Hashem and that we are only deserving of it if we keep Hashem's Mitzvos and learn His Torah. as I heard from a great Rav: you live in the Beis Medrash. the Beis Medrash is even more of a home than Eretz Yisroel. your home is the Beis Medrash. that's where you live.

[whuknu]

Wow. I am a zionist. I am also religious, I learn Torah, I daven, I keep shabbat, kosher. I am a frum Jew and I love Israel so much so that I plan to move there as soon as I can and start a family-which will be religious. So I'm not chareidi. Not everyone want to sit in a beit midrash all day and learn- its not for everyone. There are many young religiosus men who learn in yeshiva for a yr or two and then go to the army. they dont eat pig. they are defending the Jewish homeland- while you may not like that, after the Holocaust there were thousand upon thousand of Jews w/o homes. they moved to israel and fought hard for it to be a jewish homeland. They might not have been religious but israel is what brings jews together (in my opinion). it creates a sense of achdut. while there are many diferences between the frum and te chilonim, and the jews from varios diferent countries, Israel has definitey created a sense of achdut- religious and irreligious soldiers fight side by side for one cause.
the chareidim want to learn-fine go ahead- but someone has to go out there and defend the country so that they arent all killed!
my teachers i guess are nothing like urs, irarg, if i say to them, God forbid, 'I hate israel, and i never want to live there' they would say ok, maybe they would try to play devils advocate, or maybe they would try to see my point, but they wouldnt go nuts.
to u israel might not be important, but for some, unfortunately, that is all that connects them to judaism.
The majority of Jews in israel do something that keeps them connected to judaism. even if they arent frum, they do something, some minhag. In a certain zionist youth organization, their slogan is (im not sure exactly how it goes but something like this...) 'Ahavat Torah Yisroel, Am Yisroel, v'eretz Yisroel' You see Torah comes first, then the nation, and then the land (if my order is correct which i believe it is.) The torah was given to us, a nation, it binded us, created us to be one. And then we were give a land in which we could live as well, as one nation, one torah, one land. The jewish ppl have problems so big, and we as teenagers cant do so much to fix it but we can do one thing. As we all know, bayit sheini was destroyed bc of sinat chinam (self hatred) the jews hated each other. Yes I know we have huge disagreements with the chilonim, chareidim, u name the section of judaism, they have problems with another group of jews, but the only way for us kids to fix it is by caring about each other- those in the states, outside the states, in israel, the irreligious and the religous. even those who eat pig. Only after we love each other can we start to keep the torah as a whole nation. That is why the beit hamikdash was rebuilt after 70 yrs the first time- the jews were doing avodah zarah- while that was horrible it was not nearly as bad as what we are still being punished for today- sinat chinam- the reason for the destruction of bayit sheini.

Ahavat Torah Yisroel, Am Yisroel, v'eretz Yisroel!

[irarg]

absolutely. I felt very bad when i was reading what you wrote because obviously my point was expressed poorly. of course I believe that Eretz Yisroel is extremely important. I have a very close and special bond with the Holy Land. Eretz Yisroel is very special to me. I felt horrible when you wrote that Eretz Yisroel isn't important to me. I love Eretz Yisroel very very much. my point was only that Torah should be the primary focus and that many zionist organizations focus on Israel more than Torah. and although the two go together Torah definitely takes priority. and i'm not Chas Vishalom saying the Chilonim are bad people. They are doing a very good thing by defending our land. and the Vilna Gaon even said that the holiness of Eretz Yisroel will come out of Tumah. that's exactly what's happening today. they are very kind and caring people, however it should be noted that the Torah is what the primary focus should be and not Israeli culture. because it is a very big misconception that israeli culture of fallafel and shwarma defines judaism. it's israeli culture. not Jewish culture. Jewish culture is Torah.

[whuknu]

first of all- i apologize for implying that israel might not be important to you. but like i sed about that organization- the slogan brings torah first, then the nation, then the land. bc u r right- torah is important- its what brought us all together at har sinai. unfortunatley, today torah does not bring unity to am yisroel. we need to have some sort of unity- to say we are one nation- and what brings us unity is the land of israel. I personally dont think that the jewish culuture is mistook as falafel and so on- like u sed its the israeli culture. its middle eastern. torah is jewish culture. I know i see the diference and so do many others.
Zionism is very important though, and i think that some of the zionist organizations u speak of, bring mostly zionism first mainly bc they expect that schools have taught us torah already.
Today israel is the heart of the jewish ppl- while maybe it should be torah-we have alot more work to do (on our relationship w/ other jews and so on) b4 we make torah be the heart of judaism once again.

[CptCatz]

im kinda in a rush so i didnt read any of the replies, just the first post so i'll comment on that.

irarg, i have to completely disagree with you. i dont know, maybe its just my school, maybe it doesnt happen in other schools but the faculty/administration cares pretty much about torah/god as they do israel. the assistant principal of my school is very understanding and we have a good relationship and he knows all about my beliefs in god and we have had many talks in his office about it. one of my other teachers told the assistant principal that i dont believe in god (it got brought up in a class conversation) SOLELY for the purpose to help me and NOT for any kind of punishment or anything like that. i've also had religious guidance meetings with some other rabbis in my school and im pretty much honest with all of them and they do try to help (although they're not that good at it).

and yes, of course they do the stuff with israel but i dont think its any more than with god/torah stuff.

[irarg]

whuknu- thank you for understanding that i really do care about Eretz Yisroel. but, i do disagree with you that Torah is not a uniting factor of Klal Yisroel in this day and age. It is. and that is what i am concerned about. the organization which you mentioned sounds like a pretty good one (from what you mentioned about). however, there are other organizations which talk Israel, Israel, Israel and the children and teenagers and young adults come back from these summer camps and programs abiding less to the laws of Tznius, and coming back talking to boys/girls more and more of that stuff. This is not a uniting factor of Torah Judaism. However, if these same people come back from summer camp and all of a sudden have an urge to keep Halachah more properly and the boys deciding to learn a little more (not that they don't now, but rather have the Torah and not becoming more integrated into the society at the same time) then I think we have a uniting facotor.
cptcatz- thank you for correcting my erronious error. I think that I was being way to harsh on the yeshiva school's staff. I do take back what I said earlier about the staff caring more about Israel than Torah. that is an incorrect statement. I think the reason I wrote that was because I just wanted to make a strong point and i thought the way I was able to do that was to blame it on the yeshiva faculty. I stand corrected. What my main concern really is, is about the local and famous programs, and summer camp, and the overall attitude of the modern orthodox community. on that my opionion stands where it is.

[whuknu]

i didnt mean that torah isnt supposed to be a uniting factor- it definetly SHOULD be- but unfortunately its not so much nemore. Well choose ur camps carefully- instead of going on a zionist program- go on one that revolves around torah.
I will tell u something irarg- i hope u dont get angry w/ me- but many of the ppl teaching torah today, unfortunately, shouldnt be- many of them are disgraceful to our religion- sure they wear kippahs and tzizit but thats a costume- its only what u see- yes they 'act' properly- and thats exactly how they get ppl to trust them- they act like good jews- but then they go and embarass our religion- i have specifics in mind but i cant say them on this- its not so rare in the jewish community that this happens. And even if this doesnt happen- many of the ppl teaching torah dont know how to teach it to us kids-they dont know how to make it appeal. maybe they should learn that first and then teach us torah.