Get Real!!!

[teen16]

u want to make the perfect hs? i could care less about desks and stuf like that - sure itd make it cooler to sit in the room - it doesn't have to be hospital colors and dry as all hell, but fine - i can deal with that. but lets talk real. i think teachers and rabbis might freak out if they had to have real talks with us. yo - u wanna teach us history - fine! who cares?! tell me why i should - and take a minute to figure out why iwould? can any teacher tell me what a teen today thinks about or deals with that could make hisotry relevant to us? i doubt it.

teach us torah - fine - but why not get a clue as to the stuff we're dealing with ,and make it count? u guys wanna skip all the stuff about sex and sin -but u know waht? we're having sex and commiting sins!!! :eek: so if u wanna uplift us and show us the light, well take the dare!

it is so rediculous that parents and schools think theyre gonna give us ideas - ok, yeah - right. do u have a clue what we see and hear today? have u been on the net lately? do u look at the billboards on the street or the ads on tv? wake up!!

if u can't equip us to deal with this world - if u cant give us lessons from our point of view, then yah - we don't care!!!

ok, sure - we'll sit, and study and pass tests - u know why, to go out and make $$$$$$$$ one day. nice value 4 a jewish kid, don't u think. but thats all it means to most of us. study=good grades=good college=good $$$=good life.

thanks for the substance folks. time to get a clue.

[Bongo_Dude]

I think you're being a bit harsh. Not that I think that you're are wrong (for the most part) but I do think you need to look at things from the other side (I do that a lot dont I, sry). Most teachers (at least secular ones) are dealing with a lot less time with which to teach a certain subject because of dual curriculums. The Judaic facultys should defenitely make learning more involved and make it more relevant, but there also has to be some discretion involved. Thats how I feel - sure there are a lot of changes that need to be made, but the system now works to some extent for most people and that has to be taken into account in my opinion

- B.D.

[raistlin]

Welcome back Teen16. good to hear from you again. You seem to be one of the few people who not only gets it, but are willing to come right out and say it. As some people in school would say, "Shkoyech."

Well, you're right. And BD, yeah he's harsh, but he's right. There's no way boring and irrelevant subjects can compete the flamboyant outside world. Most of us are sitting in class thinking about that world anyway and wishing we were there. Most kids I know only put up with it for the grade -> college -> money thing. I'm still not convinced that good $$$ entails good life. Maybe that's for another blog.

but anyhoo, the system only works for those who buy into it. Most kids don't. And yeah, there's limited time, so why not make the most of it? What's better, cramming a kajillion different subjects in our heads for a few tests and a final or AP which we promptly forget once the tests are done (ask any senior taking calculus to do a proof in geometry - all you'll get is a blank stare), or making us care about the subjects so that we actually gain from them and remember them? Why not have fewer subjects per year but go more in depth in each of them? You can still have the long day for the dual curriculum, but make each class longer so the teachers aren't as pressed for time. Okay so we'll have fewer AP credits, but in the grand scheme of things is finishing college one semester earlier really gonna make a big difference? if the person that comes through on a college essay comes across as someone who really cares about learing and knowledge and the world, isn't that more impressive that have one or two more AP's on their transcript (which, btw, everyone else has anyway)? And if the teachers aren't equipped to teach this way, either equip them on their own time (since they should be already - make them stay after school or something, take a summer class, I don't know) or get new ones who are.

The fact that schools and their schedules work the way they do now is proof of the fact that the philosophy behind it all is "study=good grades=good college=good $$$=good life." (-Teen16) Cram alll this stuff in your heads, get the grades and the impressive transcript, get into a good college, and then make a good living while changing the world for the better, and send your kids through the exact same experience so they come out just like you. Parents and teachers have themselves admitted that this is their chain of reasoning, especially when a kid starts challenging the system in English class (where you don't talk about anything anyway).

I think the teacher's and rabbis do have a clue as to what we're going through. They went through a similar experience. Okay, they didn't have the internet, but there was music and TV and radio and movies. . . I don't know why they don't "get real" with us. I wish they would. I'm betting they don't know what to tell us cuz they haven't really figured it out themselves. they've just "moved on", to make money so they can have a good life. I wonder how many of them have actually achieved this goal, how many of them are happy with where they are.

[Bongo_Dude]

Raistlin I agree with you on almost every point. Your system is great (I really mean that) and I wish I was in it, but the fact is (in my opinion) that I dont think kids would buy into your system either.


"The fact that schools and their schedules work the way they do now is proof of the fact that the philosophy behind it all is "study=good grades=good college=good $$$=good life." (-Teen16) Cram alll this stuff in your heads, get the grades and the impressive transcript, get into a good college, and then make a good living while changing the world for the better, and send your kids through the exact same experience so they come out just like you. Parents and teachers have themselves admitted that this is their chain of reasoning, especially when a kid starts challenging the system in English class (where you don't talk about anything anyway)." --> you

I think that the same college craze and competitiveness would still apply and that the only way to do this would be in a sort of socialist society, equal level training for everyone (which only works in theory). In the end, even if money doesnt give you a good life, it is necessary and what most people work for. thus, unless you get rid of the need for money (utterly impossible), the whole cram and do well will still happen.

In terms of the teachers, I completely agree. The younger teachers have even gone through almost the same experiences as us and should be able to get real. A lot of teachers though dont teach for the money (why would you - its awful) so i guess they have to be somewhat happy with it. Still, it may not be their original goals, and that is where i think you were right.

Just out of curiosity - do you know what "shkoyech" stands for?? answer to come.....

- B.D.

[raistlin]

"shkoyech" - stand for "yashar kochech" - lit. "straight strenght" - slang "job well done", commonly used in shul and by shana bet guys

Dude, I've sat through hebrew class and davening, i've even learned some gemara. Of course i know what shkoyech stands for. What was your hava aminah?

Anyway, yes, the cram craziness would still be there, of course, and the same mentality, but it would be lessened. Fewer subjects, more time per class for questions/discussion, going to greater depth. It's a good recipe. All we need are some chefs.

I don't know how happy teachers are with where they are. Some yes, but others, (especially the new young rabbis - with them this is SO obvious) they plan to do it for a few years but then get stuck, and they find themselves 20 years later in the same chair (but the cushion isn't as soft). Also, a lot of the young YU grads do it because they can't or don't want to or are too lazy to do anything else. They just want to learn, learn, learn, and think that chinuch allows for that. I don't know their personal live so I don't know if that works, but that's not a great motivation to teach, nor does it make for good teachers. Lazy=bad (even acc to the Torah).

btw, in socialism there isn't equal level training, there's equal level benefits. "From everyone according to their abilities to everyone according to their needs." (Yeah 10th grade history!!)

[Bongo_Dude]

raist - gj, i knew what it meant, just wanted to know if I was the only one (it seems like everyone says it without think ing about its meaning) (and too much aramaic for me, lol) (and it wasnt to be taken personally - I think we both need to cool down a little bit)

I guess I see your point in the system. I just dont like the cram mentality and I guess wherever it is I'll be alittle discontented. On the other hand, I am always up for more discussion in class and stuff. For me, there's your (almost maybe) perfect school. I think you may be taking a little pessimistic view towards the teachers (although I may just be too optomistic). Maybe they are doing because they have nothing else to do or they're lazy, and in that case they shouldnt be there. All I know is, if teaching made better money, I would definitely do it. This is where the money issue comes in, and this is why life goals often end up unfulfilled

- B.D.

[kiyara]

Im new here(duh) but anywyas, i think that teen16, you first of all sound really bitter! but i dont blame you a bit. I agree with your saying that everything leads to college, good grades, good job, you'll get married if you have a diploma, and then your set, to start breeding the next clueless generation on jappy teaneck/englewood/westchester/5 towns kids. its a vicious cycle, and it sucks. i happen to not care about colege in the slightest right now. theres just many more important things to me like finding who i am, being conetnet with myself, etc. most peole,, especially in our circles, can't see a life that doesnt go something like this: yehisva hs-1/2 israel yrs-stern/YU/barnard/columbia-marriage-settling in one of our great rich communities, and zehu! life is good, right? no thinking, no hard times, no discovering anything for yourself, just following the derech that leads to (and already has led to) merely going through the motions of judaism and never feeling anything for yourself.

[raistlin]

hey kiyara - any tips or tricks on "finding who i am, being conetnet with myself, etc."? made any progress? i see what you're saying, but college shouldn't be not important at all - after all, you don't want to be hungry in a few years.

[Bongo_Dude]

lol raist, hunger is not a good thing. College shouldnt be the focus but it should be a factor or motivation, so to speak. I was actually talking to someone about this over the weekend and they completely agreed with me that learning for the sake of learning has pretty much gone out of the picture. I for one enjoy learning certain topics, and in those classes I dont care about the grades - its more about the information. I feel that all learning should be like that, so that should be part of the perfect H.S.

- B.D.

[Tigger5741]

Hey,
there's something I'm picking up here, and that's frustration with the lack of choice and interesting subjects. one of the things that's nice about college is that you are given a lot of freedom in what classes you take. while i realize that high school is not college, maybe something that would releive this tension/frustration would be a slightly different approach. there are certain things one should learn in high schopol (i.e. algebra, unfortunately) however, maybe schools should try giving more choice and variety. for example, we all need to learn litertaure, so how aabout giving three or four options that students can choose from, like world literature, or literature from specific time poeriods, which is similar to the college approacha nd makes classes more intersting. thsi way we may get rid of some of that cramming. and same in the Judaic studies. insteda of studting "Navi" offer classes in differnt books and let studenst pick the ones that interst them. that way we still get the education, but it will be more varied and intersting. any tjoughts on a system like thsi?

[Bongo_Dude]

Well, my school does electives in the eleventh and twelfth grades, so I've had choice in the past two years, and its definitely been an improvement. I think it would be a great idea, but for pre-college years, there should definitely be a rounding out, whether they like all the subjects or not. Full focus on stuff you like/want to learn should be saved for college. I think (dont know yet) that when I go to college I will be so relieved at the lack of a core curriculum and at the selcetion of classes. Don;t give too much choice because at a younger age it could be detrimental towards education. Kids need structure, and as they get older it is awesome to have more freedom of choice. Hope this helped.

- B.D.

[kiyara]

becoming conent? well i could give a nice little speech about that, but in a sense only you yourself and acheive it.

um, nobody bash me for this, and if there was a way of private messaging i knew of, i would, but bongo dude--I have the weirdest feeling that you are the David. You'd probably know what I meant if you were, and I always wanted to know you.

ok, well in response to what you said, I agree that kids need structure, but thats just a blanket statement! Once you reach high school i think there should be more of a choice, rather than some mindless classes we take that are supposedly "to exercise our minds" OHhhhh! So thats why we memorize! ha. got it.

[Tigger5741]

Hey BD-
i know kids need structure (i believe we went over this once or twice) but kiara is right, by high school there should be more choice. it's a helathy way to gain independnce while still in a structured enviornment.

PS- this is the wrong thread, but i would love your input on the other stuff!

[Bongo_Dude]

Well I guess I'm not the david because I have absolutely no idea what ur talking about. Neway...high school is still pre-college, and we're still getting ready to go in the world. I know it sounds stupid, but I feel that college should be the first time we control essentially our entire lives. I'm not saying there shouldnt be independance - on the contrary, there should be a good amount, but there still has to be some form of structure, or kids may grow in the wrong directions.

- B.D.

In my school today two kids were expelled and four were arrested for some wrongdoing on a school trip (the ambiguity is for the anonymity sake) - it happened during their free time. If they had been in structure, it wouldnt have. They need free will, but not too much. Its sort of like Judaism - we have a basic framework and a lot of choices within it.

[raistlin]

everyone here is saying the same thing - high school needs more freedom that pre-high school and more structure than freedom. i agree

i wish i had time to write more

[Bongo_Dude]

raist has a point - we arents saying much of anything new anymore. lol, I guess we just like to hear the sound of our own keyboards (no offense to anyone).

- B.D.