Homosexuality

[Friendly]

(Admin's Note:
This thread was split from another discussion in "Hot or Not" about "Today's society is degrading to men". It picks up from the middle of that discussion and evolves into a discussion regarding homosexuality...)

A man is definitely not meant to be looking for for tight jeans and shirts. Thats just gay and wrong and sick. They can look presentable, nothing wrong with doing that. But once a man starts obsessing over a mirror, thats overly disturbing.
Masculine- not obsessing over looks. Making sure you look presentable, but not obsessing over shoes and outfits. For a job interview/date or something, a mans bound to spend a bit more time on his looks, but not like a women.
Feminine- Making sure you look just right. Make up is feminine, some jewlery(Don't claim that you ever so a guy wearing chandelair earrings...and if you ever did, spare me. I can understand the occasional stud, but that IS getting a little feminine. I'm not arguing about this. If you disagree, then I don't care.)
Men and women are made different. A man is usually made with more build and a women usually more fragile. Some women can't handle a man's job, and some men can't handle a women's job. Period. You can't argue. They were made differently by G-d, and are NOT meant to be like each other.

[The Nameless One]

no they were not meant to be the same, but i do not wear make up or obsess over my hair, that doesn't make me any less of a woman. Boys wearing tight clothes is gay, but wearing someting other than plaid is fine too.

[Comfortably Dumb]

Just a side note, I really think everyone here should stop bashing homosexuals. There is nothing wrong with them. If you continue this way, you will fail in society. You're going to have to learn to live with different people eventually.

[CptCatz]

Boys wearing tight clothes is gay, but wearing someting other than plaid is fine too.i gotta agree with Comfortably Dumb on that statement. if i am 100% heterosexual and i wear tight clothes, that makes me gay?

anyways, you guys arent doing anything productive in this thread. some other topics on this site like with schools and drugs and stuff can actually make a differance in people's lives. what your talking about here is part of the system in america. you cant change the system. you have to get used to it that females look good in skimpy clothing and men dont (normally) care how they look (most of the time). some of you girls say that men should look under the looks of women and see their real personalities. have you not gotten it by now? men only care about looks. i dont know what any of you girls look like so this statement isnt towards any of you, its towards the general population of females: if your not good looking, you have to accept it and stop bi***ing over it.

[The Nameless One]

i don't mean to bash homosexuals i apologize.

i just have one last thing to say "beauty isn't only skin deep."

[Friendly]

There is something wrong with homosexuals. It's immoral and against the Torah.

[Comfortably Dumb]

What's so immoral about it? Hmmm? It's still sex, no?

[PrUnE]

There is something wrong with homosexuals. It's immoral and against the Torah.why is it immoral? Why is it that you lovin a girl is better then a guy lovin a guy? Why can a man not choose if he loves another man, maybe for a man to love a woman is immoral? Who are u to say whats immoral and whats not?

[The Nameless One]

there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual, it's against the torah to act on that though. A man can only marry a woman, and a woman can only marry a man. you can alson only have relations with your spouse.

[Friendly]

there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual, it's against the torah to act on that though. A man can only marry a woman, and a woman can only marry a man. you can also only have relations with your spouse.
Once again, The Nameless One, I agree with you because this is what I meant. I was in a hurry so I wasn't able to expand on my meaning, but let me do so now. I believe that I learned that a man can't do some certain things a woman can. That's beside the point. I went a bit off topic. A person CAN, like Nameless one said, be homosexual, but a problem arises when a person starts acting like a homosexual. IT IS WRONG TO ACT LIKE A HOMOSEXUAL. Make no mistake about it. If a person is a homosexual, it is their test in life. They should overcome it. And if G-d gave it to them as a test, then, like all other tests, they CAN overcome it. That is why it is wrong. They CAN overcome it, so if they don't, then they didn't try hard enough, and succumbed to their Yetzer Harah, or evil wants.

[Comfortably Dumb]

Oh, Jeez. Put a swastika on your arm while you're at it, Friendly. Homosexuality is not one of God's challenges, it's a life decision, and sometimes, an inherited trait. Homosexuality isn't wrong. Tell me why it's wrong? Please? I'm dying to know what the difference between sex between one of your own and the opposite sex. Homosexuality isn't evil, pal. You're the evil one for not accepting it.

[Friendly]

Oh, Jeez. Put a swastika on your arm while you're at it, Friendly. Homosexuality is not one of God's challenges, it's a life decision, and sometimes, an inherited trait. Homosexuality isn't wrong. Tell me why it's wrong? Please? I'm dying to know what the difference between sex between one of your own and the opposite sex. Homosexuality isn't evil, pal. You're the evil one for not accepting it.
Well, while we're comparing thinking that homosexuality is wrong to the holocaust...you get my point. Why are you bringing the holocaust into this? Is it because the Nazi's had their Aryan's and everyone else? I'm not taking homosexuals and straight people, and saying, "Let's kill all homo's" or something like that. I'm saying that that's what the Torah says. Ask an Orthodox Rabbi. I could give possibilities as to why it makes sense that it's wrong:
Picture a world where homosexuality is perfectly normal. There are two wives in one household, two men in another. Do either have their own children with their spouse? No. There would be a lot less people in the world, wouldn't there? Besides, let's take a look at their adopted children, or say, a man and wife who's children live in this world. The kids go out every day and play with their friends. Do you know how messed up they are at puberty? There are only so many people in this world who have homosexuality. Some people at some point(possibly at the start of puberty) are confused, but eventually they decide, homo or straight. There are probably more people homo then seem to be, so in this world of homosexual normalty, the children, who become teens, are struggling with their choice of homosexuality. A girl look's at her best friend in 'that way', but her best friend doesn't, because she's straight. Most likely, the girl will end up telling her friend or will hint it, and her friend won't feel the same way, and their relationship will turn bad. Have you ever dated a friend and then broken up? Isn't it a strange relationship? I highly doubt it's the same as before.
I stick with this fact-The Torah says it, and you can't argue with the Torah. Some things we don't understand, and some things we do. This law makes perfect sense to me, but maybe not to you. Maybe one day you will understand. I hope I helped.

[PrUnE]

Once again, The Nameless One, I agree with you because this is what I meant. I was in a hurry so I wasn't able to expand on my meaning, but let me do so now. I believe that I learned that a man can't do some certain things a woman can. That's beside the point. I went a bit off topic. A person CAN, like Nameless one said, be homosexual, but a problem arises when a person starts acting like a homosexual. IT IS WRONG TO ACT LIKE A HOMOSEXUAL. Make no mistake about it. If a person is a homosexual, it is their test in life. They should overcome it. And if G-d gave it to them as a test, then, like all other tests, they CAN overcome it. That is why it is wrong. They CAN overcome it, so if they don't, then they didn't try hard enough, and succumbed to their Yetzer Harah, or evil wants.Why can't someone act on their homosexuality, i find nothin wrong with a guy actin on his homosexuality. Why should it be wrong, cause you say its wrong? Why is a gay havin sexual relations wrong and not a guy and a girl havin sexual realations wrong? because society tells you this, because socity tells you this does that make it really wrong? Did you know the greeks said that true love is found between a man and a man? (no i dont think there right but they said that) so i think true love can be found with one man and one man, just like true love can be found with a woman and a woman and a man and a woman.

[PrUnE]

The torah is not always right about everything you know, just because they say homosexuality is wrong doesnt make it. Did you know the nazis killed homosexuals, why should you prescute these homosexuals, sayin they cant act on somethin like that, u know how hard it is, its like tellin a striaght guy that he cant do anythin with a girl for his whole life, is a guy gonna pass that test, he!! no.

[Friendly]

The torah is not always right about everything you know, just because they say homosexuality is wrong doesnt make it. Uh, no. The Torah is right about everything, if you follow it. If the Torah says homosexuality is wrong, then it's wrong. I'm not sure who said this, but I'm not the one drawn in by society and what society says by saying homosexuality is wrong. There are two sides of society-One side says it's wrong, one side says it isn't. I'm not following society, I'm following the Torah. Also, the Greeks were a messed up worshipping many types kind of gods nation. Avodah Zara Worshippers. Pagans. If they say a man with a man is true love, then there must be something wrong with that. The Torah makes perfect sense to me, and if it doesn't to you, then I'm sorry we're on different ground. Let's agree to disagree then, because I won't convince you, and you won't convince me.

[CptCatz]

Picture a world where homosexuality is perfectly normal. There are two wives in one household, two men in another. Do either have their own children with their spouse? No. There would be a lot less people in the world, wouldn't there? Besides, let's take a look at their adopted children, or say, a man and wife who's children live in this world. The kids go out every day and play with their friends. Do you know how messed up they are at puberty? There are only so many people in this world who have homosexuality. Some people at some point(possibly at the start of puberty) are confused, but eventually they decide, homo or straight. There are probably more people homo then seem to be, so in this world of homosexual normalty, the children, who become teens, are struggling with their choice of homosexuality. A girl look's at her best friend in 'that way', but her best friend doesn't, because she's straight. Most likely, the girl will end up telling her friend or will hint it, and her friend won't feel the same way, and their relationship will turn bad.
wow, thats got to be the worst arguement against homosexuality i've ever seen. the wrong thing is that homosexuality IS perfectly normal in TODAY's society. maybe with the few religious extremists like you, its not normal but with the vast majority of americans, it is normal. gay couples DO live together today, gay couples DO adopt children today. i quote you, Do either have their own children with their spouse? No. There would be a lot less people in the world, wouldn't there? - lets say that homosexuality is not normal today and in the world your talking about it is. there will still be no differance in the amount of people there are in the world. the straights will still have kids while the gays wont. about kids growing up having difficulty with their sexuality, its something theyre born with. gays are gays and straights are straights and if you think that each person decides what they want to be, you are 100% wrong. if a kid is growing up with gay parents, that wont make that kid gay and it wont make him straight, he is what he was born to be.

[PrUnE]

the only argument i can see against homosexuality, is 2 things
A.It would decrease the population
But to solve this is by just makin gay couples sperm to a sperm bank once a month.
B. ITs against nature, meanin its against nature because guys and girls have oppesite sex organs by nature and by nature make babies with them.
But you know what, who cares about nature, because nature does something doesnt mean we need to follow nature.

[Comfortably Dumb]

You took the words straight out of my mouth, CptCatz. Thank you.

[Friendly]

wow, thats got to be the worst arguement against homosexuality i've ever seen. the wrong thing is that homosexuality IS perfectly normal in TODAY's society. maybe with the few religious extremists like you, its not normal but with the vast majority of americans, it is normal. gay couples DO live together today, gay couples DO adopt children today. i quote you, Do either have their own children with their spouse? No. There would be a lot less people in the world, wouldn't there? - lets say that homosexuality is not normal today and in the world your talking about it is. there will still be no differance in the amount of people there are in the world. the straights will still have kids while the gays wont. about kids growing up having difficulty with their sexuality, its something theyre born with. gays are gays and straights are straights and if you think that each person decides what they want to be, you are 100% wrong. if a kid is growing up with gay parents, that wont make that kid gay and it wont make him straight, he is what he was born to be.
Wow, you completely misunderstood me, didn't you. How close minded do you think I am? I know that homosexuality is normal in society, but not normal enough that everyone tells that they're homosexual. The governor of NJ didn't tell you he was gay at first, did he? He would have kept it closed up if he had not been found out. Religious extremist? You make me sound like the Terrorist groups in Israel. Gee, thanks. You don't know me at all, and you never will, so don't start calling me a religious extremist, because I'm not one.
No, really? I totally thought that people were chosen to be gay!! Did you ever hear of sarcasm before? Because that was just sarcasm. If I wrote that kids growing up with gay parents made them gay, or you thought I meant that, then I didn't mean to write that or I didn't write that. If someone is born with homosexuality, then they're homosexual. The more normal something is in society, the more likely people will do it. If drugs were something that barely anyone did, then the less people would start on it. If homosexuality were more shunned, less people would act on it. This is what I meant to write. If someone has gay parents, they can be straight. Never said they couldn't as far as I know, since I'm not wasting time looking back on my post. As for a sperm bank, wouldn't that be highly difficult and expensive?
We obviously disagree on this subject, as I said before. What's the point of arguing? Like someone said in an earlier post, we won't change society. We're just arguing, and since we have different view points, we will continue arguing if we don't stop somewhere. I have my viewpoints, and you all have yours. It was nice to see so many people replying, and I feel confident that my post won't be the last under this topic. There will probably be critism, or posts replying to this, or maybe this will be the last post. I really don't care. If there is anything else anyone says, maybe I'll just ignore it. What's the point of arguing? Like I said before, we're not getting anywhere.

[Comfortably Dumb]

You aren't getting anywhere because you have no arguement, Friendly. You do a poor job covering your self.

And I quote:
"The governor of NJ didn't tell you he was gay at first, did he? He would have kept it closed up if he had not been found out."

"If homosexuality were more shunned, less people would act on it."

More shunned now, eh? Why wouldn't Governer McGreevey tell you he was gay? Maybe because he would get shunned. If you think homosexuality is accepted in the United States today, you've got another thing coming. Ask any teenager what they think about Gays and Lesbians. You'll get a large portion saying, "Ewwwwwwww!!!" Don't give me that crap that it's accepted.

"If homosexuality were shunned, less people would act on it." You sound like an idiot. Who are you to dictate people's lives?

[kiyara]

i think both of u are bashing too much, and i happen to strongly believe that you are not gay because you choose to be, i think its the same kind of attraction feelings straight guys feel for girls, and the other way around. i dont choose to think someone is hot, but sometimes i just feel that way. its like - u cant help when u start to taste food and like some of it and dislike others of it.

[Comfortably Dumb]

It's called a, "debate," Kiyara. Even though some people here don't put up much of an arguement.

[kiyara]

ohhhhh. got it. wasnt familiar with the term "debate".
(sarcasm)

[randomness123]

Hey ive been readin this and i got a bunch of things to say...
Firstly, the world is obsessed iwht homosexuality, let whoever wants to be gay, be gay. Secondly, it might not be a choice, but i am going through it and i think being gay is more of a disease. look at almost every person who is gay, they all have smoe sort of issues with there father or lack of male role model in there life, that makes them want to look for it in a partner--so a person has two choices, to fix the lack of relationship or to accept being gay. i will admit there are things that can't be fixed and im very open to people that admit they are gay, but i think every1 needs to take a few years to deal and try and fix the issue before "coming out".
This also has to do with the halachic aspect. God would not TWICE in the torah have called it a to'evah, unless it wa really a choice. but sometimes it's too hard and impossible to fight b/c you convince yourself you're straight... you force yourself to have a GF and look at porn, but then one day, one man will walk into your life and everything you worked for will go down the drain.
i believe very much that everything has a psychological basis and a root from your however many years of life, but it can't all be fixed

[PrUnE]

I know someone who is gay and he doesnt have any parent or family problem so i just proved u wrong :-)

[Comfortably Dumb]

Yeah, you don't necessarilly have to have psychological problems. Even though it's usually the case. It's heredity and preference also.

[randomness123]

okay, both of you had valid points, but my opinion is really what happens most often.. i said "most" not all people who think theyre gay...

[whuknu]

i just read this whole thing....

Uve never been to israel have u friendly- plenty of straight guys there were tight jeans-that’s just the style- here its baggy for guys- there its tight- it’s a cultural thing.

Style and fashion and whats ok whats not ok is determined by society. In Scotland men can wear kilts and that’s not gay. Woman wear pants – they aren’t lesbians.

Im a girl and I don’t obsess over my hair and make up- I mean if im going somewhere fine- but for school- I just have no interest or energy.

I don’t think anyone was bashing homosexuals- they were just defining what society deems gay. Personally I have nothing against homosexuals. They didn’t do anything to me.

Homosexuality it self is Not against the torah-the act of a man lying with another man is against the torah. But someone can be gay and not act upon it- just like its ok for a man to want to sleep with a woman, but if they aren’t married they cant- so neither can gay ppl. But no where does the torah say don’t have feelings for someone of the same sex- it just sez don’t act upon them.

He can even act LIKE a homo sexual- he just cant perform any homosexual acts. So he can dress how he wants provided that its withing the laws of tzniut.

A teacher of mine sed maybe its not a decision- maybe its like a genetic mutation- or atleast maybe we should view it that way. That way we aren’t blaming the person. I mean is it a decision to be straight?? It is difficult to control ones feelings.

I believe that one reason the torah deems the acts of homosexuality as an abomination is bc that is not the way God intended for the world to be. Of course if this was aperfect world…. We wouldn’t need thelockers now would we?

We aren’t just talking about what society deems as wrong – we are talking about our torah- our laws. This is what God sed. I have nothing against them and its not society telling me its wrong. If it weren’t for the Torah- id say go ahead have a great time. But remember the torah also tells us that we cant have sex b4 we are married and so on- so then these ppl would need to get married to- (does that make sense?) but the torah is right- God sed and wrote the torah-so u r just saying that God is wrong.

I don’t think that being gay has to do with the family at all.

But I think whats important is that we care about each and every person- including homosexuals- these ppl adopt kids right? Bc they wants kids and they want to have them to care for them. Sure it’s not right according to the torah- but how many of us follow every word of the torah? Did u know that its an abomination also to not keep kosher? So u can not keep kosher but say then Im not gay and being gay is aganst Judaism? It doesn’t matter! Ur still sinning! We are all going to break laws of the torah. Maybe a gay person can be religious in every other way- Shabbat kosher tzniut everything. Hes just gay.

[kiyara]

i agree with every single thing you just said whuknu, right down to the not having energy or interest in getting all pretty for school:)
well said

[other]

After reading this post I have one big thing to say: A differentiation which I don’t feel has been made is between if it is ok for a Jew to be gay and a goy to be gay. It says nowhere that a goy can't be and just because you don't agree with something or like it dosn't mean that other people shouldn't be allowed to do it(If that was true being a Jew would have been outlawed a long time ago)

A big problem with a lot of people is they don't know anyone who is gay so they think it is weird. I for one have a grown cousin who is gay (well we think he is, but he is also British so we're not sure :-) ) and I used to live next to gay couple. Gay people are perfectly normal people, just like you and me. Whose business is it what goes on in their bedroom?

Its right be4 shabbous so i dont have time to blab anymore, but i thought i'd get that out while the post is still fresh in my mind

[Friendly]

You aren't getting anywhere because you have no arguement, Friendly. You do a poor job covering your self.

And I quote:
"The governor of NJ didn't tell you he was gay at first, did he? He would have kept it closed up if he had not been found out."

"If homosexuality were more shunned, less people would act on it."

More shunned now, eh? Why wouldn't Governer McGreevey tell you he was gay? Maybe because he would get shunned. If you think homosexuality is accepted in the United States today, you've got another thing coming. Ask any teenager what they think about Gays and Lesbians. You'll get a large portion saying, "Ewwwwwwww!!!" Don't give me that crap that it's accepted.

"If homosexuality were shunned, less people would act on it." You sound like an idiot. Who are you to dictate people's lives?I'm a little confused which one of us sounds like the idiot. You just confirmed exactly what I said. The argument before was: "Is homosexuality right?" And we all had different opinions. The other argument, I don't think it's an argument because we agree, is whether or not homosexuality is accepted in today's society. I think that everyone here agrees that it's not. "If homosexuality were shunned, less people would act on it." Is meant to say that homosexuality is known and normal for some people. It's not shunned by everyone, so there is possibility for it to be more shunned than it already is. Also, where do you see me dictating peoples lives? I doubt that stating my viewpoints is dictating people's lives.

[whuknu]

other- goyim arent allowed to be gay either- it goes with illicit sexual relationships. thats one of the 7 mitzvot bnei noach.

I do know a guy who is gay-that doesnt make me feel any diferent about him.

[Comfortably Dumb]

I'm a little confused which one of us sounds like the idiot. You just confirmed exactly what I said. The argument before was: "Is homosexuality right?" And we all had different opinions. The other argument, I don't think it's an argument because we agree, is whether or not homosexuality is accepted in today's society. I think that everyone here agrees that it's not. "If homosexuality were shunned, less people would act on it." Is meant to say that homosexuality is known and normal for some people. It's not shunned by everyone, so there is possibility for it to be more shunned than it already is. Also, where do you see me dictating peoples lives? I doubt that stating my viewpoints is dictating people's lives.

We're taught to be tolerant these days, but what do you think people really think of homosexuals?

[other]

other- goyim arent allowed to be gay either- it goes with illicit sexual relationships. thats one of the 7 mitzvot bnei noach.

I do know a guy who is gay-that doesnt make me feel any diferent about him.

I meant more in the modern world people can do what ever the @!!@# they wan't, its not our job to worry about them.

[whuknu]

in that case other, so can jews- many of us do what we want regardless of what the torah sez but u said:

" differentiation which I don’t feel has been made is between if it is ok for a Jew to be gay and a goy to be gay. It says nowhere that a goy can't be "

so i thought that u were asking not about today.

[other]

sry maybe I misinterpreted what u were talking about, I was talking about dealing with gays in the real world and what you think of them.

[whuknu]

thye cna sleep with whoemever they want, provided that the other person is a consentiing adult as well (or if they are teens, whtvr both consenting). personally i have nothing against ppl.
if say 20 yrs from now my son comes home from school and tells me he is gay, the first thing i would do is hug him and tell him that i love him bc the thing is he must be terrified to have come and tell his parents that.

[randomness123]

THE WORLD IS NOT READY FOR A GAY ORTHODOX JEW.

[whuknu]

too late, i believe there are

[whuknu]

and even if they aren't ready- too bad. life doesn't always go as planned now does it?

[pongo]

wait one second! You make homosexuality seem like a disease. People are homosexual! if they dont act on it then you get what happened w/ Gov. McGreevy. He has a family which is now completly destroyed b/c he kept this a secret for so long.
If guys choose to wear tighter clothing that does not make them homosexual (that is actually the style in Europe)
They way this thread is going it is no wonder to me that the suicide rate in the gay community is so much higher than the heterosexual one.
Learn to accept people for who they are.

[other]

What do u mean the world isn't ready. Orthodoxy (theoretically) has had the premise of not changing its ideas over time. If we weren't ready for it 2000 years ago, we wont be ready for it ever

[pongo]

that doesnt imply u shouldnt accept and tolerate people for who they are

[randomness123]

other...ummmm, what? i like the encouragement and i agree ppl should accept, but the orthodox society doesn't seem to... im kinda not understanding what you're saying, other

[other]

basicly i have a relgious, and personal (which is that homseuxality was wrong, is wrong, and always will be wrong), oppion. and then another american oppion (to each his own), the one which i judge other people by. (maybe its a flaw in me but thats how i am)

[whuknu]

but other do u keep every jewish law? and why personally, forget religion, do u think its wrong?

[other]

I know i am a religous jew, but i'm also heavly involved in politics (mostly in opion, but slowly in action also). I've learned that what you belive religously dosn't mean @$#% when you are disscuiing if something is/is not or should/should not be legal, so i seperate my two opions (amerrican opiopn would be better phrased as my constituional opion)

[randomness123]

how can you say homosexuality is wrong if it's not a decision one has the ability to make... also the point of these forums is not to seperate americans and personal and religion... it's all supposed to blend into one solid opinion that can be discussed.

[whuknu]

A person CAN, like Nameless one said, be homosexual, but a problem arises when a person starts acting like a homosexual. IT IS WRONG TO ACT LIKE A HOMOSEXUAL. Make no mistake about it. If a person is a homosexual, it is their test in life. They should overcome it. And if G-d gave it to them as a test, then, like all other tests, they CAN overcome it. That is why it is wrong. They CAN overcome it, so if they don't, then they didn't try hard enough, and succumbed to their Yetzer Harah, or evil wants.
I believe here friendly explains it pretty well. u can be a homosexual just dont act on it. just like a man can have feelings for a woman he is not married to but he cant act on them in a sexual/physical way.

[other]

I don't know the answer to this question myself, but Friendly: How do you know that they can overcome it, have you been in that posioton (if you say yes my feeling would change).

[Friendly]

I don't know the answer to this question myself, but Friendly: How do you know that they can overcome it, have you been in that posioton (if you say yes my feeling would change).
What feeling of yours? The feeling that I'm wrong? I don't know if I have ever dealt with it truly. I think that every person deals with that when they start the whole harmone thing and know about homosexuality and heterosexuality. You have two people: One who fails their test, one who doesn't. One will give up, the other won't. Who am I to say that it is possible for both people to pass the next test? Maybe it was only meant so that they can feel acheivement that they struggled at all. But this can't be said who didn't struggle at all. The least you can do is struggle and not give up.

[Friendly]

other- goyim arent allowed to be gay either- it goes with illicit sexual relationships. thats one of the 7 mitzvot bnei noach.

I do know a guy who is gay-that doesnt make me feel any diferent about him.I know someone who is gay also. What does it matter? Many people are gay. I still don't feel it's right, but I don't act any differently with them.

[Friendly]

i just read this whole thing....

Uve never been to israel have u friendly- plenty of straight guys there were tight jeans-that’s just the style- here its baggy for guys- there its tight- it’s a cultural thing.

I have been to Israel. Nice place. Why do I need to have been there? Why can't I just be in America and stare at straight guys wearing tight clothing? And how do you know all those guys wearing tight clothing are straight?
The last question was just a joke. I don't think it's a cultural thing-I think it's a prefrence. Did I say all men wearing tight clothes are gay? If I did I don't agree with that. I think it's more 'sissy like' for men to want to show their figure. The rest of your argument was discussed on page one and two.

[Friendly]

Oh, by the way, about the whole gay rights thing in America, I think they should allow gays rights to get married-what happened to freedom? I don't even understand the whole argument. I still don't think it's right. But like some others said, it's their choice.

[other]

What feeling of yours? The feeling that I’m wrong? I don't know if I have ever dealt with it truly. I think that every person deals with that when they start the whole harmone thing and know about homosexuality and heterosexuality. You have two people: One who fails their test, one who doesn't. One will give up, the other won't. Who am I to say that it is possible for both people to pass the next test? Maybe it was only meant so that they can feel acheivement that they struggled at all. But this can't be said who didn't struggle at all. The least you can do is struggle and not give up.

I don’t think that everybody has the same feeling for men. And I don’t think that you can speak for everyone when you say that being gay is something that can be overcome. Many people who are gay will tell you that it was not a dissection that they made, many will even say they wish they had a choice and could be attracted to women.

P.S

This is a different branch of the same topic, but I have a question: When you say it is wrong to act like a homosexual what does that mean? That you have sexual relations with a man? Or that you have decided that the person you want to live with and share your life (but not necessarily your bodily fluids) with is a man?

[randomness123]

yea there arer tons of branches we could go from this tpoic... i have a few myself..... but anyway, i think when we are referring to being a homosexual (or at least i was) reffering to loving a man and wanting to be with him both physically and emotionally... but fine, maybe it can be just emotionally. but i totally think experimenting--ie bodily fluid swapping- is fine, even a physical short-term raltionship is fine b/c it usually will mean nothing and ppl will go back to grls, but if you constantly hook up with guys and you want to be in love with one, thats where the problem is.

[randomness123]

also, is it my imagination or has the world gone gay-crazy? over the last week ive seen two different shows where ppl killl themselves b/c they are gay--jack&bobby and huff.... either way it really doesnt help strngthen or give help to those dealing with it, it only promotes depression and suicide. does anyone know why TV would be showing this so commonly these days? and in such a negative light?

[whuknu]

Other, while friendly may or may not have been in that exact position friendly has probably overcome other tests (please correct me if im wrong friendly)
Friendly- I think I misunderstood what u meant about the test-

“A person CAN, like Nameless one said, be homosexual, but a problem arises when a person starts acting like a homosexual. IT IS WRONG TO ACT LIKE A HOMOSEXUAL. Make no mistake about it. If a person is a homosexual, it is their test in life. They should overcome it. And if G-d gave it to them as a test, then, like all other tests, they CAN overcome it. That is why it is wrong. They CAN overcome it, so if they don't, then they didn't try hard enough, and succumbed to their Yetzer Harah, or evil wants.”

I thought u meant that if someone find that he is gay then the test is acting on his feelings of homosexuality, not whether he actually is a homosexual.

friendly I apologize for the misunderstanding about men and clothes… ur right not all those guys are straight but not all of them are gay.

Dictionary.com:
a. The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
b. The state of being married; wedlock.
c. A common-law marriage.
d. A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.
Marriage was originally intended btwn a man and a woman, not a man and man. Today it is more accepted, I’m not so sure how I feel about it.
Other- Acting like a homosexual refers to the actual sexual acts btwn two men. So I mean they could be roommates and not sleep together.

does anyone know the EXACT halachic reason why homosexuality is an abomination? I learned in like the 8th grade but that was a forever ago and im not sure exactly how it went, i have an i dea but whatever, so if neone knows and has a source please tell me.

[kiyara]

i think its just considered an abomination bc its not natural .... and that wasnt how ppl weer created to recreate. or something...
i have a q though- how can 2 guys share bodily fluids? besides kissing. i mean could a man have anal sex with another man and cum inside of him? that sounds so yuck but it jsut came"haha" into my head...

[other]

it is in sefer vakira, we read it at the end of the torah reading for mincha of yom kippur (dont ask me why i remmeber that)

[whuknu]

does it have anything to do with the wasting of sperm (jewish lives and so on... thats why men cant masterbate and unable to use condoms isnt it?) but if that was the case then woman would be able to be lesbians and that would be fine but just bc its an abomination than thats why they cant?

[Friendly]

Other, while friendly may or may not have been in that exact position friendly has probably overcome other tests (please correct me if im wrong friendly)
Friendly- I think I misunderstood what u meant about the test-

“A person CAN, like Nameless one said, be homosexual... They CAN overcome it, so if they don't, then they didn't try hard enough, and succumbed to their Yetzer Harah, or evil wants.”

I thought u meant that if someone find that he is gay then the test is acting on his feelings of homosexuality, not whether he actually is a homosexual.

Yes, I have overcome other tests in life, and no doubt everyone else here has too. We need tests to grow. No tests, no growth.
Yeah, that's what I meant. If someone acts on their homosexuality. I don't see how they can be cursed for being born homosexual.

[CptCatz]

Once again, The Nameless One, I agree with you because this is what I meant. I was in a hurry so I wasn't able to expand on my meaning, but let me do so now. I believe that I learned that a man can't do some certain things a woman can. That's beside the point. I went a bit off topic. A person CAN, like Nameless one said, be homosexual, but a problem arises when a person starts acting like a homosexual. IT IS WRONG TO ACT LIKE A HOMOSEXUAL. Make no mistake about it. If a person is a homosexual, it is their test in life. They should overcome it. And if G-d gave it to them as a test, then, like all other tests, they CAN overcome it. That is why it is wrong. They CAN overcome it, so if they don't, then they didn't try hard enough, and succumbed to their Yetzer Harah, or evil wants.
i've to completely agree with this post up to a certain extent (does that make sense?). if you believe in the torah, then friendly's post up there^ makes perfect sense. if it clearly says in the torah not to do something (for example having gay sex), then you can not do it. dont make up excuses saying that its their life style. what if someone's life style was killing people? can you say its alright since thats how they truely feel (that murder is alright). its plain and simple, according to the torah, having gay sex is WRONG.

as for my opinion, i can care less what other people do. if they want to have sex with chickens, let them, it doesnt concern me and it shouldnt concern you.

[J&B]

It should concern us all in a sense that the society (formed by no less than ourselves) shouldn't give legitimization to homosexuality.
The most severe effect of homosexuality is confronting the institution of the family, which is a most fundamental basis of the Jewish Nation.

[whuknu]

lol thats a little gross... but cptcatz while i agree with u (not about the chickens) premarital sex is also not allowed according to the torah. So while i know thats not the issue here, there are ppl who are straight and have premarital sex and then they look down on ppl who are having gay sex bc according to judaism its not so kosher. ok so maybe thats not the best example, but i think i sed this b4, how many times have we sed lashon hara? 8 billion times? most of us have done it, if u havent then good for u guys who havent, but thats also assur- its part of the ten commandments, but ppl say its ok to speak lashon hara as long as im not gay? or its ok that im speaking lashon hara-hes doing the bigger sin cuz hes sleeping wiht a man! thats not the case. none of us keep each and every jewish law! lets say this guy who has gay sex keeps all the other jewish laws and the only law some other jew keeps is that hes not having gay sex? i hope u guys dont mind i think i went a bit off topic...

[whuknu]

J&B- im not really understnading what ur saying...

[J&B]

I was replaying to CptCatz ;). He siad it shouldn't concern us...
I quote: "as for my opinion, i can care less what other people do. if they want to have sex with chickens, let them, it doesnt concern me and it shouldnt concern you."

i have to agree with you, whuknu, that sleeping with another man is as worse as to sleep with a niddah or a married woman. All three cases are incest Jewish-wise, and a person ought to give his life not to commit these sins...

The problem with homosexuality more than any other sin is its actuality in today's society. The media is doing everything to legitimate it. People go out on the streets crying out loud "I'M GAY!"

If we don't show some kind of rejection towards homosexuality it may soon be OK... Leniency to homosexuality equals to its incorporation to our realm of the tolerable and permissable! :(

[kiyara]

ok J&B, u just used a bunch of intellectual words and i got lost, but i dont think that we can bestow , as a jewish nation(and minority!!) our rules over the entire world. even tho its shev mitzvot bnei noah, inherently we as liberal and free ppl think that there should be freedom is sexuality; it makes sense, does it not? i mean u always see those stories in teen poeple and YM about the teen thats happy with her same sex "parents"

and its also not our place to say that were better or worse for doing or not doing one mitzvah or another. so good point whuknu about the whole lashon harah thing.

[J&B]

Sorry about the vocabulary :p ... I just started college and I'm getting used to try to impress my English Comp. teacher by using hard words :D .

So, kiyara, I 100% agree with u that we shouldn't change the whole world. I never meant to say that. We, as Jews, are supose to make a difference by simply giving a good example, not by imposing.

I was saying that among our own (Jewish) community, we need to say a clear NO to homosexuality.

I still think that it is reasonable to kind of discriminate homosexuality more than other sins. I gave the reason on my last post...

[pongo]

If they dont act on it then is it better they marry, start a family and then later learn its all fake!? This not only ruins their lives but the lives of their loved ones as well. Its better to address the issue thand skirting it.

[other]

It should concern us all in a sense that the society (formed by no less than ourselves) shouldn't give legitimization to homosexuality.
The most severe effect of homosexuality is confronting the institution of the family, which is a most fundamental basis of the Jewish Nation.

But the nation isn't based on jewish vaules

[other]

lol thats a little gross... but cptcatz while i agree with u (not about the chickens) premarital sex is also not allowed according to the torah. So while i know thats not the issue here, there are ppl who are straight and have premarital sex and then they look down on ppl who are having gay sex bc according to judaism its not so kosher. ok so maybe thats not the best example, but i think i sed this b4, how many times have we sed lashon hara? 8 billion times? most of us have done it, if u havent then good for u guys who havent, but thats also assur- its part of the ten commandments, but ppl say its ok to speak lashon hara as long as im not gay? or its ok that im speaking lashon hara-hes doing the bigger sin cuz hes sleeping wiht a man! thats not the case. none of us keep each and every jewish law! lets say this guy who has gay sex keeps all the other jewish laws and the only law some other jew keeps is that hes not having gay sex? i hope u guys dont mind i think i went a bit off topic...

How can you justify breaking one law by saying you do others. The fact that we say lashon hara isn't something we should all just acepet, it is a problem. So lets try to cure one and not start another

If people thought like this then socity would eventualy ditirorate

p.s.

I'll admit i masturbate, but i wouldn't say its ok because i'm a good jew otherwise, on the contray, i'd say i'm a good jew how why am i doing this if i keep all other mizvahs.

[other]

Wouldn't those pepople be the people who you are close with? and whoever you are close with would know you well efough to know its you (and you would know them well enfough to know its them also).

p.s.

I think that many people might find that after they know what someone said on this board then they might want to become friends as a result (talk about the best way to become friends with someone and not being shallow)

[whuknu]

So J&B, if ppl are doing other averot except homosexuality, u wont discriminate against them, but to the guy who is doing everything else right according to the torah, u would discriminate? i just dont know what ur saying bye "I still think that it is reasonable to kind of discriminate homosexuality more than other sins. I gave the reason on my last post..."

prune- maybe they find someone that they love (even if the sexual attraction is nt there) and they discuss it with them and everything, then it might not be so bad. the sex part most probably still feels good even if its not with a man, so if everyones ok with it, then why not? I mean i dont know if i would go for it if i date a guy who was gay and he proposed this to me, but there might be ppl out there strong enough... i know it sounds crazy... i heard that from a teahcer once.

[randomness123]

okay, the last post i made ppl were saying how its time for the community to change and accept...now every1s like--no its wrong??--its damn hard to go thru. i know its wrong and i know no gay sex is allowed, but there are still gay ppl and saying some of this stuff is pretty offensive. totally, if some1s gay, dont act on it, but when you are gay you wind up in this totally lonely state where you have no guy friends b/c you're scared of getting too close and grl friends are stupid mean nothing relationships... soooo when there is a chance to hook up with a guy its kinda hard to ignore, even tho gay ppl should totally try to not be over the toevah the torah talks about.
J&B i think you're being too critical too soon... did you read all the posts in this section? if you did, then you really are a cold person for not understandinhg the complexities of homosexuality and saying it should just be stopped and denounced...i also agree ppl shouldnt be so quick to admit "im gay" and should try and fix it first, but some situations are just not able to be changed

[randomness123]

btw, also check out how popular this topic is...id rank is as one of the top ten on this site w/ over 1000 hits. im sure there are tons of ppl who read these posts, but are too scared to say anything...speak up ppl! i especially wanna know if ne 1 else is really dealing with this issue and what your opinions are..it could be beneficial to every1 in the group.

[J&B]

whuknu, I think you idea is great:cool: ! I mean, I also agree that it is not so practical... But the point you were making is that gay feelings aren't forbidden while gay sex is. Right?

[J&B]

ramdomness123: I suspect that since you have gay feelings yourself
soooo when there is a chance to hook up with a guy its kinda hard to ignore...
you are kind of taking it personally. Well, I never meant to offend you. i never said anything whatsoever about gays, I only said about homosexuality.
So, I apologize.
Let's say a gay comes to some Jewish place, let's say a synagogue. What I mean by discriminating his way of life is that people shouldn't allow him to openly declare his sexuality. If he does...
Just like if a guy enters shul and he starts telling EVERYONE about his having sex with others' wives...
The main problem with homosexuality is that gays are proudly declaring their homosexuality. I mean, if someone makes a clear statement and you don't react to it, you are implying that you accept what he/she is saying. So if a gay says I'm homosexual and to b homosexual is 100% fine, you should immediately say that you don't believe it is.

[whuknu]

it may not be practical but sometimes life throws us a curve ball. and yes thats what i was trying to say.

Maybe randomness is feeling that way but, but maybe not so dont jump to conculsions if randomness wants to tell us fine but i wouldnt go and say something so straight out like... it can be offensive to some.

So as long as a gay stays closeted its not so bad? well u see, its not the same as someone who is sleeping with other ppl's wives. its very much diferent. hes not saying 'hey i slept with another man' hes simply saying that hes gay. instead of talking about his sex life hes just admitting his sexuality. (i mean maybe some ppl like to go into details but as long as hes already gay and he wants to come out about it, thats not a problem, other wise hes not being completely honest!

[PrUnE]

What feeling of yours? The feeling that I'm wrong? I don't know if I have ever dealt with it truly. I think that every person deals with that when they start the whole harmone thing and know about homosexuality and heterosexuality. You have two people: One who fails their test, one who doesn't. One will give up, the other won't. Who am I to say that it is possible for both people to pass the next test? Maybe it was only meant so that they can feel acheivement that they struggled at all. But this can't be said who didn't struggle at all. The least you can do is struggle and not give up.Ur lookin at everything wrong, ur lookin at homosexuality as a test. IT IS NOT A TEST. Homosexuality is when a man is attracted to another man, thats a feeling, and "god" doesnt take away ur free will and make u like him it was ur own free will. if it was a test then god would be takin ur free will away and if he does exist he wouldnt do that

[PrUnE]

let me end this topic here, no one can say if homosexuality is wrong or not cause all morals are not unviersal, in ur mind homosexuality may be immoral but in my mind there is nothing wrong with it. no matter what anyone says on this thread will change anyones opinions cause ppl who are against it are usally to close minded, and just wont admit there is nothing wrong with it. Yes ppl who are homosexuals are different then u, so u should discrimate against them? no let them do what they want and u do what u want.

[whuknu]

in that case- if its free will- he has a choice not to like a guy and can like a girl- im not saying he does decide or doesnt, im just showing thats what it seems ur saying.

[whuknu]

the ppl that are pro arent anymore openminded. i dont think its immoral- murder is immoral- sexual preference is a diferent story

[kiyara]

how is being gay immoral? who can possibly that that it is. can someone say that me having a crush on a membe rof the opposite sex is immoral? no! same thing. almost the same thing, rather. but u cant close the book on a feeling. they are there and must be dealt with, just like any other feeling.

i dont rememebr who said it, but u cant use the term "fix it" regarding homosexuality. it is not a "problem" that needs fixing. im not saying u should go and have gay sex, but u should not supress feelings bc thats not healthy either. i wonder why god gives some people gay tendencies, if he doesnt want us to act on them. on that note, does god realy put every thought into our heads? i have heard that he does not, but doesnt he have to...i mean without him we wouldnt be abkle to think anything....?

[other]

ramdomness123: I suspect that since you have gay feelings yourself

That was extreemly rude. Dude, you've been on this board for like 12 hours ... I don't mean to be rude, but maybe you should read some more posts and realize the edicite of this board, and how it works.

let me end this topic here, no one can say if homosexuality is wrong or not cause all morals are not unviersal, in ur mind homosexuality may be immoral but in my mind there is nothing wrong with it. no matter what anyone says on this thread will change anyones opinions cause ppl who are against it are usally to close minded, and just wont admit there is nothing wrong with it. Yes ppl who are homosexuals are different then u, so u should discrimate against them? no let them do what they want and u do what u want.
I couldn't have said it better myslef

[Friendly]

let me end this topic here, no one can say if homosexuality is wrong or not cause all morals are not unviersal, in ur mind homosexuality may be immoral but in my mind there is nothing wrong with it. no matter what anyone says on this thread will change anyones opinions cause ppl who are against it are usally to close minded, and just wont admit there is nothing wrong with it. Yes ppl who are homosexuals are different then u, so u should discrimate against them? no let them do what they want and u do what u want.
I agree with you that different people have different opinions of homosexuality. What I do NOT agree with, and I think was very wrong of you to do, was to criticize people who were against homosexuality, and then say it was perfectly fine. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF STATING YOUR FIRST OPINION IF YOU WERE PLANNING TO GO AGAINST IT AFTER? First you said it was pointless to argue, and that no person's mind will be changed, and then you TRY to change the minds of the people against homosexuality! Do you find anything wrong with that? The thing I find most disturbing is that you said you wanted to end all the posts on your opinion? Why didn't you end it on a neutral opinion? Such as, "We will all have different opinions, what's the point of debating any longer?" Something along the lines of that. I'm sorry if I sounded rude, it is not meant to be that way. But I am slightly annoyed.

[whuknu]

ok guys i dont want this to turn into a fight again... i can just do that with my parents... maybe we should all try to be more careful with our words... maybe prune could have ended off a bit more neutral but maybe he has an explenation for that. neways the point is, we dont know if its right or wrong and thankfully none of us are God so we dont have to deal with that.

[Friendly]

ok guys i dont want this to turn into a fight again... i can just do that with my parents... maybe we should all try to be more careful with our words... maybe prune could have ended off a bit more neutral but maybe he has an explenation for that. neways the point is, we dont know if its right or wrong and thankfully none of us are God so we dont have to deal with that.
All right. Sorry.

[whuknu]

its ok thanks for understanding

[other]

J.B, sorry for what i said, but from what you said on another post i've learned that you're not a HS kid. I'm sorry for what has happend to your sister and i respect your soul searching, but i'm afraid you may have found the wrong place. I know this is gonna sound mean, but you're not one of us; you're older and [some might say] wiser, you think diffrently than us.

[J&B]

J.B, sorry for what i said, but from what you said on another post i've learned that you're not a HS kid. I'm sorry for what has happend to your sister and i respect your soul searching, but i'm afraid you may have found the wrong place. I know this is gonna sound mean, but you're not one of us; you're older and [some might say] wiser, you think diffrently than us. I will consider your point...http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif ... Maybe I really do not belong here. i thought that by being a teenager (10-19?) it was enough. But now you are telling me that I also need to be a HS kid.

So long everybody!
I really enjoyed this short time I shared with you.
keep on the good work!!!
Good luck on whatever you do in life http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif !
I'll miss you...

[shufleye]

guys, this sitch is not so clear-cut. check out the poll on this issue that we put up last night:

http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=436 (http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=436)

ultimately this is a decision to be made by the members of The Lockers. but i think its worthwhile to consider what happens to members who graduate HS, but still feel connected to their friends here...

this is an issue that we are considering from the admin side too... it is something we knew would come up, but did not have an obvious answer to. for now we set members like J&B with a member status as "College Student" (u can see that next to all his posts now, where most members have "Junior Member" or "Senior Member"). is this enough? we're inviting your input under the poll thread -- don't post on this here, cause this really doesn't have much to do w/ homosexuality http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif .

http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=436 (http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=436)

another thing to think about is this: we could allow 'graduates' of The Lockers to certify as moderators...

so another question to consider, and this is something we've really been thinking about, is allowing mods to participate in discussions in a respectful and peer-2-peer/non-preachy fashion. so give us your thoughts on this too....

(but again, please post on this topic under this forum: http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=436 (http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=436))


shufleye ~ yer friendly neighborhood admin

[The Nameless One]

Homosexuality is not something that can be helped, but just b/c you are a homosexual doesn't mean you have to act on it. I don't care if the greeks, Arabs, Catholics, Athiests etc... say it's acceptable to act on it, the point is we're Jewish and we have our own laws and our laws say that it's not allowed to be acted on.

Some people accept it other's don't but it's not necessarily evident in the way you dress, walk, talk. you cannot judge people on appearences alone, even though people say that they express themselves with clothing,but it's not enough to make a judgement on them.

Basicly we're all saying the same thing, it's wrong to act on homosexuality but despite that it's nature and it's nothing to shun someone over.

[whuknu]

so ur saying its wrong to do it, but it shouldnt be something one should be punished for?

[other]

Keep in mind: that has been said be4, if someone cared about that then they'd know already, otherwise your preaching to the quier

[randomness123]

ill have to agree with nameless one but if it is nature and someone isnt shunned for it...what if they act by mistake, or give in to temptation? should they be shunned then?

[2face78]

fact is- its a difficult situation and brings up the whole q- is someone born gay?
IM OUT

[randomness123]

i just said to myslef...hmm i think i have an answer but then realized i really dont kow anymore!

[whuknu]

randomness-what do u mean by mistake? someone accidentally sleeps with someone who is the same sex as they are?

[randomness123]

i mean not mistake, but some gay people might be trying to not act on their gay impulses and they do---and regret it--even though it felt good, they didnt want to do it, so then should they be blamed or shunned?

[2face78]

well, its a question that has a dif response per each situation. if it was a true mistake than meen hatorah he shouldnt be shunned but if it wasnt then should be. its really between the person and G-d. i bet everyone has that feeling of, this is between me and G-d and nobody else knows the whole curcumstances and ur feelings. respond ttyl
IM OUT

[randomness123]

some ppl dont have that feeling and theyre mostl scared fo what other ppl would say if they found out.... even though this shouldnt be tru, g-d is easier to deal with b/c you can apologize w/ all ure heart to him and hope its ok without ever knowing. f there are ppl around and they find out---soem mite never talk to you again but some mite stay just as close if not closer with you ;-)... so pl who have never had to deal with this b4...what would YOU do if some1 ( a good friend) told u they mite be gay, or told u they are gay and had a gay experience?

[2face78]

personally i would feel a little uncomfortable with the fact that they are gay not the person themself. its ok to feel uncomfortable with their gayness if ur not uncomfortable with them as a whole person. ttyl
IM OUT

[other]

But that dosn't mean you should treat them any diffrent. Its not all people act on their hromones (as a teenager i'll admit thats hard to belive)

[2face78]

Its not all people act on their hromones (as a teenager i'll admit thats hard to belive) wat does that meen but treating dif is correct. u cant treat them dif. they are still ur freinds and still have to treat them that way otherwise ur not a true and good freind.
IM OUT

[whuknu]

randomness- yes the same way one is punished (by God not by humans, so its not even our palce to judge) if he has sex with a girl he is not married to- even if its not adultry they just had premarital sex- he is probably punished.

I already sed what i would do if 20 yrs from now my son came to me and sed he was gay- i would hug him and tell him that i love him. same as i would do for a friend. who are we to judge them? we all have our flaws we all do aveirot and so on. and what they must be feeling- alone? sad? scared? to have to come to their friend/ parent to tell them this? they are scared most likely. we shouldnt treat them diferently they are ppl.

[other]

Some people think that gay people are going to try and have sex or kiss them just because the like men. Unlike teens people can be friends with the people can be friends with people who are the same sex as the people they like without thinking of them that way (even if your just friends with a girl, for the most part, but nowhere near always, you have thought of\ looked at them in that way)

[randomness123]

i know u said that whuknu, and thanks b/c it actually means a lot b/c u seem to have a very healthy outlook on this stuff.
as for our next Q, if a friend admitted he was in love with YOU in a homosexual way (ie-jack and bobby thanksgiving episode) how would you handle it?
i know i would tell the friend im not interested but i would make sure to stick around so the friend would be able to get over me and hopefully help him thru the issues as well

[whuknu]

Well im a girl-what would i do if a guy whose a friend told me that? i would freak- i get a little scared off when a guy tells me he likes me, i dk why i just do. so i would do the same thing if a girl who is a friend told me that she liked me. maybe id freak out a little bit more bc it is a girl, but i would explain it her that i dont feel that way and id still want to be friends with her- the same way id still want to be friends with the guy.

[2face78]

way to go whuknu. im impressed with ur maturity and ability to handle difficult situations. its no help to a person if u freak. if i were that person i would have trouble thinking of u in that way anymore. in fact i would not consider u a freind anymore.
IM OUT

[randomness123]

nice whuknu, but why do u get so freaked out? i think its a compliment wen some1 likesa it and its best to take it with a smile, maybe blushing, and flirt a little, cant hurt...could turn out better then u expected

[other]

Well im a girl-what would i do if a guy whose a friend told me that? i would freak- i get a little scared off when a guy tells me he likes me, i dk why i just do. so i would do the same thing if a girl who is a friend told me that she liked me. maybe id freak out a little bit more bc it is a girl, but i would explain it her that i dont feel that way and id still want to be friends with her- the same way id still want to be friends with the guy.

Why, wouldn't you be even more comfortable around a guy who is gay since he wasn't attracted to you so you could be friends with any of that tension

[whuknu]

other, maybe i mis understand ur question but... i never sed i feel uncomfortable around gay ppl, did i? i happen to not have ne guy friend who r gay (or friends who are girls who are lesbians) but if a friend tells me tomorow that he or she is gay, i will not feel any diferent about them. if a girl told me she was in love with me then like i sed i would get freaked out the same way i would if a guy told me he liked me.

[whuknu]

2face and randomness- i dont freak like outwardley, i just get nervous. i dont go "omg u like me ahhhh" or nething weird like that lol. i mean some ppl tell me it happens to them too, u know, its just like this weird feeling, maybe sometimes its cuz i feel the same way, or i dont know how to deal with my feelings or whtvr it is. its not like i say something that would make u not want to be friends with me. but randomness ur right- im just not good at the whole "i like u" thing. im probably not ready at this point for a real relationship like that. but its ok cuz im young and i have a while.

[randomness123]

i think i mis-understood you, but yea it would be easier for a grl to be friends with a gay guy, but no need to be scared of the straight ones

[2face78]

whuknu-good answer.
btw-is there anyone here who has ever had gay feelings?
and im a guy so i sort of understand. but wat is up with the obsession with lesbians?
IM OUT

[whuknu]

again im not scared of them. i have plenty of friends who are guys. i never had an actual bf but i had chances to, we just decided it wasnt what was right for us.
but lets pass this bc this thread is not about me and my getting scared of relationships lol.

[whuknu]

i was wondering the same thing- since ur a guy, wouldnt u know? i guess not all guys have the lesbian fantasy thing going on.

[2face78]

btw-is there anyone here who has ever had gay feelings?
and im a guy so i sort of understand. but wat is up with the obsession with lesbians?
IM OUT

[2face78]

not really but maybe a little
IM OUT

[other]

Why, wouldn't you be even more comfortable around a guy who is gay since he wasn't attracted to you so you could be friends with any of that tension

Sry missunderstood u

[whuknu]

its ok ive done it too...

[The Nameless One]

there is a source in the torah that says you cannot act on homosexuality, it's in perek yud chet of Vayikra, pasuk 22: "a man should not act with another man in the way he acts with a women..."

so to those of you who still insist it's ok to act on it, here's the proof that it's not.

I am not saying being homosexual is a sin, only acting on it.

[Teenager]

Now bring a proof that everyone in this thread belives in god and\or is thinking in terms of god

[2face78]

well since we are all jews who by definition believe in God, but dont necisarily want to follow His laws-we do believ in God- there is a dif between thinking in terms of G-d and believing; however, if u were here for the whole convo u would no that alot of it does relate to the halachic aspect meening taht we are worried about wat the torah says and can discuss it. some pple dont care wat the torah says and some pple do indeed have dificulty believing in G-d, but when push comes to shove i would say everyone here beleives in G-d. as they say " there arent any athiests in a foxhole!"
IM OUT

[whuknu]

nameless one- i think we aready established that
2face- whether ppl believen God or not is not the issue of this thread...

[PrUnE]

some things u can follow in the torah and somethings u dont have to and i think homosexuality is one of them.

[randomness123]

wait, prune, u think homosexuality is which one? one to be violated or one you're not allowed to? plus i think most of the things its ok to violate are things we dont understand the reasons why theyre wrong, like homosexuality, i just wish god had given a little more direction b/c if some1 is confused about it, just saying "its an abomination" twice in the torah doesnt help some1 whos goin thru it

[2face78]

good point random!
IM OUT

[whuknu]

that is a good point randomness-

[PrUnE]

wait, prune, u think homosexuality is which one? one to be violated or one you're not allowed to? plus i think most of the things its ok to violate are things we dont understand the reasons why theyre wrong, like homosexuality, i just wish god had given a little more direction b/c if some1 is confused about it, just saying "its an abomination" twice in the torah doesnt help some1 whos goin thru itI said it is perfectly fine. If you think homosexauilty is wrong, then ur just full of hate. Did you know hitler killed gays too, if u think its wrong then u have something in common in hitler.

[randomness123]

wowow, i totally dont think its wrong, we actually discussed this in psych class today-- its totally something that happens, but gfor those who do believe in god and hjust a word from the torah is enough to make them believe, then they should supress it. but if someone doesnt understand and wants to openly be gay, go for it

[Comfortably Dumb]

I said it is perfectly fine. If you think homosexauilty is wrong, then ur just full of hate. Did you know hitler killed gays too, if u think its wrong then u have something in common in hitler.

Copy me some more why don't you?

[whuknu]

I said it is perfectly fine. If you think homosexauilty is wrong, then ur just full of hate. Did you know hitler killed gays too, if u think its wrong then u have something in common in hitler.
no prune- if u think homosexuality is wrong, u r not full of hate. do u think i am full of hate? i think that the act of homoseuality is wrong- not to be a homosexual. i for one am not full of hate. i have nothing in common with hitler and i find it offensive that u would even suggest that someone such as myself is full of hate and similar in any way to hitler.

[whuknu]

btw prune- just to add on to what i sed about one being full of hate for thinking homosexuality (whether the act is wrong or being a homosexual is wrong) is different from HATING homosexuals. for example, we may say that christianity is wrong, they beliven jesus to be God and so on and we dont believen that, does this mean that we God forbid hate christians? no! not at all- some might hate them, but hopefully not simply bc their belief is diferent. i have christian friends, i certainly dont hate them- and if i did i would certainly hope it wasnt bc of their faith!

[randomness123]

also i think that hating some1s lifestykle is just as bad as hating the person---if u like a person, ure choosing to like everything about him and ure not with him to expect him to change. that is not a tru friendship

[whuknu]

ok so bc one thinks a lifestyle of homosexuality is wrong, that means they hate homosexuality? i dont hate homosexuality! i think its wrong, i dont hate it. and randomness- does this mean if i think christianity lifestyle is wrong, i hate christianity and therefore hate christians? in that case, why do i have christian friends??? i am not friends with ppl i dont like.

[randomness123]

whuknu--i know it was confusing but i didnt mean thinking lifestyles was wrong, i just meant if you think it's wrong for a specific person, in that case it's bad, but i know u dont think that and i know u have christizan friends, srry

[whuknu]

randomness- its ok but im not sure i understand what u r saying. i believe homosexuality to be wrong in general- its ilicit sex, just like premarital sex and incestual sex (dk if i spelled it right). i mean i wouldnt say its wrong for one specific person, i think as a whole its wrong. just like eating something not kosher is wrong, but if my friend eats not kosher im not going to hate them for it.

[shufleye]

Admins Note: this thread has been split. posts on what defines a Jew can be found in the religion section under this thread: http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=469 (http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=469)

[randomness123]

btw-is there anyone here who has ever had gay feelings?
and im a guy so i sort of understand. but wat is up with the obsession with lesbians?
IM OUT
ok, ive had gay feelings.... but anyway whos obsession with lesbians? straight guys or do u not understand the concept of lesbianism?

[2face78]

straight guys?
IM OUT

[randomness123]

well im not the one to be talkin to about it..its just grls are hot and therefore 2 together is even hotter... but i think were off topic

[blah]

i have friends who are turned on by girls who hook up w/ eachother etc, but i just think its gross and i don't get it. your explanation didnt exactly help. is it just one of those things, like homosexuality, that happen w/o any particular reason?

[luckst4rs]

yea some guys say they don't like it but really why do guys think its hot for 2 girls to be making out? because don't you think if you saw someone hot YOU would want to be getting with them not another girl? that's what i think with guys- i'd rather get with a cute guy than watch him make out with another cute guy.... plus guys are all like GROSS when it comes to two guys- why is ok for two girls to be together but not two guys?

[whuknu]

what do u mean by "ok"? like accepted in society or that guys like lesbians but not gays?

[randomness123]

of course its gross for guys to watch other guys! they dont care about what guys look like where it counts or how they make out,....grls on the other hand is fun to watch make out, but i dont understand the grl/grl thing so much

[2face78]

i guess bc its a taboo type thing. who the hell knows
IM OUT

[whuknu]

lol i thought maybe a guy here might..

[blah]

i guess its just one of those wierd guy things that grls will never understand... they themselves probably dont even know y the hell they like it.

[whuknu]

i see- we all have our quirks. ;)

[WhoAmI]

and i thkn that (above) is what homosexuality is all about. whatever floats your boat

[whuknu]

could be... but what if what floats my boat is murder? Sure u could say oh murder is moral but having sex with someone of the ame sex as u is not- but according to the sheva mitzvot bnei noach- not just our 613 mitzvot- homosexual relations are not permitted

[WhoAmI]

good one, but havent we been defending homosexuality this whole post? i mean we kinda established any1 not goin thru it isnt really in a place to judge. while i still think it's wtvr floats your boat, and there nothin to do about it....theres still the idea you should try not to sact on ure feelings, tho you still have them

[whuknu]

btw my mistake- i am atually not sure about homosexuality being one of the illicit relations in the sheva mitvot bnei noach- i will try to find out.

in any case, whoami - u r right none of us can judge until we have been there. but allthough u cant really compare, i will bring an example, i get upset easily, sometiems i say things i dont mean, ppl say why r u getting so mad its not a big deal, but really they cant say until they are me and they truly understand. there is something i can do about my feelings rather then getting mad- i can learn some self control- just like a gay person can learn to control himself as well.

[WhoAmI]

i agree with you on that totally...it absolutely is a process to learn how to ignore certain feelings, and i think a neccessary one

[2face78]

as part of the group in thelockers who view homosexuality as an inherintly bad thing. i dont think that view comes from us as personal opinions. as far as im concerned we are representing the torah's view-note that the torah beleives the actual relations are bad not necisserily the feeling. its a fine line but wat is important is that we are not saying gay guys are bad pple even there homosexuality is bad-its the torah that says acting upon it is bad.
IM OUT

[WhoAmI]

i know thelockers is to preahc what the torah says, but it still is a place for personal opinions---and i happen to agree with your 2face

[other]

as part of the group in thelockers who view homosexuality as an inherintly bad thing. i dont think that view comes from us as personal opinions. as far as im concerned we are representing the torah's view-note that the torah beleives the actual relations are bad not necisserily the feeling. its a fine line but wat is important is that we are not saying gay guys are bad pple even there homosexuality is bad-its the torah that says acting upon it is bad.
IM OUT

There is no "we" on the lockers. Your belifes may reflect the torah point of view, but they are your views and you speak olny on behalf of yourself.

On the lockers there is no good and bad side. You shouldn't be trying to combat against people who don't belive in the torah.

[whuknu]

i know thelockers is to preahc what the torah says, but it still is a place for personal opinions---and i happen to agree with your 2faceNo0 the lockers is not to preach! as far as i know its a place for modern orthodox teens to come and do what weve been doing all along- not in anyways to preach.

I wasnt trying to say that one should repress his feeling- sry if it came out that way- but rather one should not act on his feelings- as u sed 2face. i would not ever tell someone to try to convince himself he is something he is not.

[other]

What? I'm totaly lost? Where did you say anything about feelings?

[whuknu]

r u asking me? bc ive sed alot about feeling things...and not acting on ur feelings... in this thread.

[WhoAmI]

i think every1s very confused--its just a gay person shouldnt deny who he is but maybe should suppress his feelings.
however--if he's suppressing his feelings, should he come out? maybe just to friends and family? or let every1 tink he's straight and cant find a woman for himself?

[whuknu]

it might be something good to share with ur close family and very close friends. and should one decide to get married- their spouse as well- thye deserve to know.

[WhoAmI]

spouse i understand, friends maybe, but lets say its disapproved by and dissapointing to your family?

[whuknu]

well maybe to keep the shalom bayit, if u can keep it btwn u and ur spouse (but def spouse should know, its only fair)... i honestly dont know though.

[pongo]

idealisticly your spouce/family/friends should accept you for who you are. They should relise how hard it must have been to come out, and support you in this. however din the close minded/ traditional sociaty we live in thats almost never the case

[PrUnE]

Why should people be ashamend if they are gay? We live in a world were people should have morals and be tolerant of other peoples sexuality. Just like people should do the same to Jews and blacks.

[J&B]

It's proven. Overcoming homosexuality is possible. E X T R E M E L L Y hard, but possible. Instead of resigning to his 'fate' (I believe homosexuality is not an undeniable fate, but anyway...), a homosexual that wants to overcome his homosexuality should deny deny it; recover his eterosexual feelings...

I nkow it's so easy to say it. It just happens to be that I believe in it. I believe that if the Torah forbids homosexual relations it's because it's not fate.

[pongo]

the torah forbids a lot of things, but people do it any ways.
One thing the torah stresses is love for your fellow man. Being gay is not an easy thing and people who seek treatment often come out more harmed than they were before (electro shock therapy is one method, but is often unsuccesful) We as Jews should set the example by being more accepting and tolerant.

[WhoAmI]

homosexuality mite be looked at as fate by some ppl, but in all honesty i think every1 who says theyre gay can fix it, its EXTREMELY hard and im tryin to do it rite now but i do belive its possible to fix
any1 who doesnt wanna work on it and just admits it should be accepted thougj, b/c either way you go its a big thing to deal with