How things really are.....

[ColdTruth]

Parents these days really think they have us teenagers figured out. After all, they were in our position at one time in their lives. However, their adolescent generation grew up during the 60s and 70s. Those times were far different from our modern, 21st century. You didn’t hear about cell-phones, computers, the internet, stem cell research, arthroscopic surgery, breast augmentation, or viagra back in those days. Times, they are a changin’ . . . or re they?
Technology and medicine may have improved, and the quality of life is most definitely better today than 35 years prior, but when juxtaposed with our parents’ teenage generation, the 21st century adolescent may actually see a strikingly similar social situation. Lets face it, the same things are going around. Pot is still the drug of choice and alcohol is as ubiquitous as ever. Kids will forever be experimenting, and those urges for members of the opposite sex are inherent in teenagers. Seemingly, the only difference is that girls are now wearing the tight, bell-bottom jeans instead of the guys, and Infinitis and BMWs – as opposed to Caddies and Chevys – are the vehicles of choice for the driving-age high schooler.
Henceforth, why are many parents so concerned with what they feel is the instability of the modern teenager. Substances are the same, yet sentiments are different?!?
Think about this for a minute. If pot and alcohol were commonplace then and the same is true now, changed attitudes must be the result of something other than the use of the substances themselves. Consider the social status of pot in the 60s against its status now. Marijuana may still be the most commonly used drug, but to have been a pothead in the 60s was to have been an avid Beatles fan and a frequenter of Vietnam War protests. It was the drug of peace and love. Today’s definition of the pothead is too broad to pin, but one thing’s for sure; pot is no longer associated with peace or love. Its most common association today is with escaping reality and getting “retarded.”
This may lend useful insight to the original question – why have sentiments changed? American society is different today from what it was 30 or 40 years ago. This is an age in which it is necessary for the nightly news to ask parents if they know where their children are at 10 o’clock. Teen pregnancy is at its height; one million girls impregnated a year. This is the era of angry, head banging metal rockers, the age of the rave and its affiliate drugs, ecstasy and acid. 21st century America is a time and place in which depressed and disheartened youth believe that solving their problems involves a dozen student-hostages and a shotgun.
Acid and Ecstasy? So substances have changed. Well, not really. Acid and ex are simply the most “modern” drugs on the scene. Pot has been around since ancient China, and cocaine and heroin have been used for over a century. Nevertheless, drugs like heroin, cocaine, speed, acid, and ecstasy are ones that teenagers will usually only experiment with. Although these drugs are dangerous, statistics show that most who try them are one-time users and do not have adverse reactions outside of the highs that these drugs are “programmed” to give.
When considering why things have changed so much over the past three or four decades we must consider the generation prior to that of our parents. Our grandparents didn’t have the problem of drug abuse during their teenage years. Therefore, when the 60s and 70s rolled around, they were relatively unaware of the danger that drugs posed to their children. These children, our parents, now have a more keen understanding of the drug “problem.” Unfortunately for us, they are taking their understanding of the issue out of context – hippie and disco era – and transposing it into the 21st century. Parents need to slow down, look around and realize that the situation and circumstances aren’t the same. Their mindsets are antediluvian and their methods for dealing are obsolete. If they feel there is a problem, then address it with the understanding that times in fact are different and that remedial action must be adapted to fit our generation’s ever-changing youth. Vietnam is over. Disco is dead.

Everyone, please comment - teens and adults alike. Your feedback is much appreciated.

[shufleye]

Everyone, please comment - teens and adults alike. Your feedback is much appreciated.~Admin's Note:~
Actually parents CAN'T comment here - this is a teen only board. But parents, if you want to comment, please do so in the Parents Corner (see the main page), in the general feedback section. You can start a "new topic" for this posting by ColdTruth in that section.

~Shufleye - Yer Friendly Neighborhood Admin

[Bongo_Dude]

Wow - long post. Before I comment on the content, I just wanted to compliment you on your writing style - I felt your post was very well written.

In response to what you wrote, I agree with certain parts but feel you went a little overboard with other. I think that parents use obsolete attitudes in modern context in dealing with us, but your focus on substance abuse was what threw me off. I think that this goes much farther than drugs and alcohol - it spreads to our entire society and teen culture. Parents do need to "grow up," but what disturbed me was your tone towards the drugs and alcohol - you made them seem like fact, like they would never go away and always be fairly widespread in use. I think that eventually something will change, or if it doesnt that society will have gone down the toilet. For now, parents have to come to terms with drugs, among other things. My question is - will we?? I'm sure we will to some extent, but I hope that it will be to a much smaller extent. Something, hopefully the drugs, will have given way in the next ten/fifteen years, but there will still be so many other issues to deal with. I guess what I'm trying to say is 1) Don't focus entirely on the drug issue and 2) Don't make drugs such a fact of life.

good luck with responses

- B.D.

[raistlin]

I'm impressed to. So much so, that I question you teen status. Antideluvian is not a very common word in our kind. (Actually, this is funny, I know it from an old Abbot and Costello routine.) Are you just some voracious reader? I would presume so, especially from the statistics you mentioned.

I do like your analysis, and, as always, the Dude of Bongo has some good reactions. Yes drugs are not the only issue, but I saw them in your post more as a point of focus, rather than the entire issue. Please correct me if I am wrong.

BD - assuming society does not undergo any major upheavals, drugs and alcohol etc. will become like tv - a ubiquitous pleasure we have to stay up really late to really enjoy. The only way for drug use to die down in this community is for there to be some alternative. Schools would like us to belive, I think, that that alternative is Torah (or Judaism). I have yet to see them make a good case for this. I'm open to other suggestions for alternatives, though.

[Bongo_Dude]

raist - thanks for the title - you got a good laugh out of me (the dude of bongo, eh). you are right (as usual) and I dont think you should be giving me any special credit for my reactions. You deserve it as much as I do.

I see your point in terms of alternatives. The problem is, I think that if kids held off until they were older they would see the futility in drugs and alcohol. Unfortunately, once they reach that age they're too hooked to get off it, and then the cycle starts all over again. I don't think there are any alternatives to drugs, only deterrants (I guess I dont agree so much). Drugs are an escape from life - the only counter or alternative is living, and finding some meaning in your life is the way to keep from wanting to escape (it all goes back to the other post - lol, meaning in life). It is sometimes said that life is a drug - it is, in a sense true. There are two drugs - those that complement living and those that leave it.

- B.D.

[ColdTruth]

BongoDude - In response to your first post;

Firstly, I would like to address your comment regarding my excessive attention to the issue of substance abuse. I do understand - as is apparent in my own family - that many parents use ineffective remedial methods when dealing with the full gamut of adolescent issues, not only substance-related problems. My intention was not to claim as much. In this particular post I decided to focus on substances, and hopefully in future ones, I will address other problems that are created by the "gap" between our generation and that of our parents.

Also, I personally do not feel that drug and alcohol abuse will end among teens in the foreseeable future. Alcohol is technically legal – if you’re over 21. Nearly every household in the U.S. contains some form of alcohol and teens are bound to get their hands on it some way or another – that is if they don’t go out and buy themselves a 21 ID. It is the most pervasively used substance and its use is only on the rise. Pot is also not going to “go away,” anytime soon. Pot’s omnipresence is obvious in modern-orthodox yeshivas. When describing yeshiva life, pot is often among the top characteristics. For whatever reason it may be, many teens feel a need to “escape” from time to time. Unless someone comes up with a strikingly innovative way in which to do this, substances are going to be the breakaway lane from reality.

I'm not sure why you feel our society will have "gone down the toilet," if these "problems," - if you so desire to deem them - do not cease to exist. I'm very eager to know how you can justifiably draw that connection?

Raistlin – I’m sorry if it seems like I am repeating some of the things you said. I have been trying to post a reply to BongoDude ever since he responded but there has been something wrong with the system.

Substances were merely the focal point of my post, as I do acknowledge the pervasiveness of the issue. With respect to alternatives – you are wholly correct, although I don’t think that substance abuse will ever become as trite an activity as watching TV. Sorry, but the high is a tad different. Torah is far from being an alternative. For many teenagers the stress of yeshiva life is they very reason why they choose – or are forced – to find some means of escaping that reality. Its kind of amusing to think what adolescence would be like if every time we felt stressed-out we picked up the Bible instead of a joint and some Absolut. Don’t misconstrue what I’m saying – there certainly is a middle ground. Teens don’t immediately revert to drug and alcohol use when they feel a little anxiety. Many will play a musical instrument, go out to eat with friends, view a movie, attend a concert, or even read a book. The recreational possibilities are endless in this modern age of technology. For Torah to be the “escape” for modern-orthodox teenagers, our society would have to be turned on its head. Rabbis would also have to prove to us how our written and oral law – ostensibly ancient texts – are what they’re really claimed to be – malleable, modern day marvels capable of guiding us in every imaginable situation.

Thanks for all your input.
CT

P.S. I absolutely am a teen, but am flattered by your compliments.

[kiyara]

you write very well, I wonder if you write from experience or not. I know that many teens have tried drugs, get drunk, etc, when they are depressed, empty, bored, etc. but the point is this: why? why are they feeling this way? its not that, say, 3 in every 10 teens have chemical imbalances which cause them to resort to these things. i know for sure that no matter how depressed i get i dotn actually seemyself taking drugs..i just dont. and the only reason i would, is not for me to feel better b/c i know that drugs dont cure you long term, but to make people arund me, my family, friends, etc, feel bad and sort of give them a "wake up call" unfortunately, many teens resort to such drastic means just to let people know they are sufering.
"The recreational possibilities are endless in this modern age of technology. "
- great quote smart one ;) care to give some examples?

[Bongo_Dude]

CT, again I am amazed by your writing style - absolutely unbelievable. I just feel that substances (among other things) symbolize the deviation of society from morals and good values. An escape is a cop out, and should not be tolerated. As such, if society doesnt clean up its act, in my opinion, it has lost its way and will go further and further from Derech Ha'Yashar (the straight path)

- B.D.

[ColdTruth]

BD - I'm eager to understand why in your opinion, substances represent the "deviation of society from morals and good values?"

[Bongo_Dude]

because its running from life's problems instead of trying to do something with them. It's also bitul zman (a waste of time) - u could do a lot more productive things with ur time then go and leave this world. Not to mention substances distort ur sense of morals and can cause you to do things you wouldnt otherwise do. It isnt the only symbol in my mind, but it is a substantial one.

- B.D.

[raistlin]

First of all, BD:
I see the point you are making about drugs and alcohol. I think I agree. But two things. One, I mentioned alternatives before and you said there are not alternatives only deterrants. But then you wrote that "the only counter or alternative is living, and finding some meaning in your life is the way to keep from wanting to escape (it all goes back to the other post - lol, meaning in life)." So meaning in life is an alternative to escape from life. So we agree. But where do you get that? where do you find that? My point about Torah being the alternative to drugs (CT - this is apropo to you too) is that frum people seem to have found meaning in it. Meaning, purpose, fullfilment, or at least our high schools would like us to believe so. They don't give us much of a reason to. I'm not saying the Torah isn't the answer to all life's problems, CT, I'm not willing to make that jump. I can only say that I don't know whether it is or not, and it doesn't reflect well on my educators and their methods that I am at a point where I can and do make decision for myself and high school has given me no reason to pursue an orthodox lifestyle. And two, you mention that substance abuse is a waste of time because you could be doing more productive things. Like what? From another blog with AntiJap, we reached a point where the only suggestion for a meaning in life is my personal enjoyment (which I believe I have shown to be unsatisfactory pending any future arguments for it). If so, and substance abuse feels so great, what else should I be doing? It does all go back to the meaning if life poem, see my post in the rabbis blog. The answer to this question should also be the source of that "sense of morals" you mention, which is another important issue.

CT:
"For Torah to be the “escape” for modern-orthodox teenagers, our society would have to be turned on its head." I wouldn't mind seeing society turned on its head. There's a lot of things that don't sit well with me. Like the preoccupation with sex and nudity - it's very animalistic. Granted we may be only super-intelligent apes, but I still find it dehumanzing. Yeah, it's fun and stimulating, but at the same time it's barbaric. Just because turning society on its head is a lot of hard work doesn't mean it's something we should stay away from, which seemed to be your argument. I acknowledge that there might be a better reason not to do this, though.
"Rabbis would also have to prove to us how our written and oral law – ostensibly ancient texts – are what they’re really claimed to be – malleable, modern day marvels capable of guiding us in every imaginable situation." Exactly. This, as I see it, is the main obstacle. See my
post(s) in the rabbis blog.

ps - look, we know you're smart, but come on, "view a movie"? now you're just trying too hard. it's "watch a movie."

kiyara:
"I know that many teens have tried drugs, get drunk, etc, when they are depressed, empty, bored, etc. but the point is this: why? why are they feeling this way?" Good question, but I think it has a good answer. Someone at the panel event said that it's because kids feel like there's something missing in their life and they don't know what it is. If there's any common denominator to all these blogs, it's that point. It should be obvious. Drugs and alcohol are one way of filling that gap, or at least making you feel like it's not there or stopping you from caring about it. Yeah, it doesn't fix anything in the long run, but most teens don't care about the long run. We live a generation focused on instant gratification. Faster computers, faster phones, faster cars, faster food, etc. Besides, in the long run we're all dead anyway.

[Bongo_Dude]

Very nice post raist. First off, I never said that a meaning in life was just physical enjoyment. It most certainly isnt. You need more than that to make your life worth living, otherwise ur pretty much an "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we may die" (forgot the name of the "religion") person, and that is (i think) not the way to live. Ummmm, retrospectively, I didnt mean what i said about the deterrants things so you make an excellent point and there is no need to react. Where do i get what??? I'm not sure what youre asking there, but if its about the meaning being an alternative to drugs then I'll answer. If you have a purpose in living (other than physical pleasure) - a mamash purpose, a moral and good (ambiguous on purpose) meaning, then you wouldnt (i dont think) want to waste ur time escaping from the world. Judaism can be that meaning, it can also be something else. I agree that the schools want to make the Torah the alternative, and there is good reason for that. Orthodox Judaism, in my mind, is a framework for living your entire life, from the second you wake up to the second you go to sleep. If your purpose in life is to be a good jew, then you dont have time to escape, because life is your purpose, every second of it.

In response to what you said to CT, I firmly belive that society needs a lot of work, and the torah is the framework for this. As you said, the problem is getting people to see that it is a framework for life, and not just a burden that has to be shouldered several times throughout the course of a day. For me, I am a Jew 24/7, no matter what I'm doing, and if I do something contrary to Halacha, I feel guilty about it. If I deviate, it hurts. This is what has to be found for Judaism to work on society - once enough people realize this, they will try to make their environment conducive to that kind of life and it will turn society "on its head."

As a continuation (and a response to what you said to kiyara), the gap is there because kids have nothing to live for that encompasses every waking moment. I dont see a gap in my life, because there is no aspect in my life that Judaism doesnt address. Kids dont think about the long run - we see ourselves as immortal - and facing your own mortality can really mature a person. I went to Israel alone for four weeks a year and a half ago, and before I left I was scared out of my mind. I tried convincing myself that my life had made a difference, that it had been worthwhile, and it didnt work so well. This is what turned me around and forced me to grow a little. Living every day to make a difference also removes gaps. All it takes is a purpose, and it is so hard (but necessary) to find it.

- B.D.

[kiyara]

Bongo- I'm inspired by what your saying here, about Judiasm filling the void that God knows so many of us have. You definitely have written about how you "found" yourself, meaning, etc. in many posts, and how beneficial it is. In all seriousness, would you be willing to share any of it? Not that we'll go out and do what you did, just for curiosity and broadening of the picture...watever. I know you say stuff about internal and external inspiration, etc....but really - what happened? Did you just think a lot about yourself and purpose, read a book, talk to someone...?

[Bongo_Dude]

Not that I dont want to share, but I'm not so comfortable sharing this stuff in a public forum (it gets pretty private). If we can convince the admins to get some sort of private messaging system going, I would be happy to share it with you. Also, there is no guarantee that what happened to me will work for anyone else. I think the end result can happen to most people, but there are many ways to get there. If they don't get a messaging system for us in the next month or so, I'll reconsider telling. For the moment, though, I'm not so comfortable with it here, sorry.

- B.D.

[kiyara]

thats cool then....I'll be waiting

[lamamakara?]

we hear you...
but for right now it is not going to happen. Sorry...

[Bongo_Dude]

hehe - i can be very persuasive....

- B.D.

[magniv123]

wow...so many amazing points in this forum! im just taking it all in...

so ya there are so many "problems" and issues in our society. they all present stumbling blocks in the path of a jew, (and when i say jew i mean a jew in any "place" - like not religious, kinda religious, super religious - at any spot in the spectrum). so many things in pop culture put in quetsion OUR values and morals as jews, whether from a spiritual standpoint or a halachic standpoint.
i think the issues in society will never go away. theres always "bad" in world, because without bad youd have nothing to base the good on (now thats not to saythat anything is so cut and dried, black and white as the analogy of "good and bad" but for writing sake i think you get what i mean).
i think the issue is not eliminating these problems from the world, because the way we live as jews is not the way the rest of the world lives. i think we need to worry about how we're dealing with these worldly problems in our own jewish communities and our jewish society as a whole. we need to confront them and solve them rather than looking at them as issues that need to be erased from the picture.
i think the way to do this through understanding halacha and understand what really is the Torah's ideal picture of a world? What really did God want out of this? What really did God create here? I think once we all have a better understnading of these questions, not necessarily the answers yet, but simply the direction of these questions, i think we'll be able to work together a lot stronger and tackle these problems of drugs, sex, tzniut, food, and any toehr prevelant issue questioned by todays popular culture.
and i dont think that we will all find the same answers necesarily to these questions, i know that for the most part i have found my answers which are forsure diff than many other ppl that i know and love, but it hink in finding your personal answer you find an appreciation and understanding for allt he answers out there....
let me know
maybe i didnt really say anything at all here, its a pretty ambiguous point im trying to make here...

shabbat shalom
magniv!

[Bongo_Dude]

i think being jewish is living in the secular world, seeing its problems, dealing with them on a personal level, then on a communal level, and finally trying to improve the entire world, because in the end we are suppsoed to be Or La'Goyim (a light unto the nations) and I feel like that means we have to show them the right path and then help them get there. I think halacha is G-d's gift to us that we must use to accomplish that. If you have a code and a fairly rigid frame for how to live your life, then you will (hopefully ) be less succeptible (sp?) to the faults of secular society. In my mind, G-d created a world with humans who have human thoughts, and they quickly left a moral path because of those faults. He chose us (or mebbe we accepted it unto ourselves) to be this light, and by adhering to halacha, we can help the world to improve (or at least try to the best of our abilities). thats my take on all this, please comment

- B.D.