My pain is gods love

[PrUnE]

Striking at mental apparitions Like a drunk on a vacant street Silently beset by the hands of time Indelicate in its fury An aberrant crack as skeletons yield To unrelenting gravity While viruses prowl for helpless victims Who succumb rapidly.

Tell me! where is the love in a careless creation when there is no "above", theres no justice, just a cause and a cure, and a bounty of suffering, it seems we all endure and wat im frightened of is that they call it gods love.


Twisted torment, make-believe there’s a truth and we all submit
“Believe my eyes,” my brain complies to all that they interpret

I know there’s no reason for alarm but who needs perspective when it comes to pain and harm we can change our minds there’s a better prize

[booklet0519]

if you think that god loves you and so he gives you pain... i find that rediculous...
i don't think people like that exist....

[PrUnE]

u obvoiusly didnt get what i said at all did u?

[J&B]

Correct me if I'm wrong, you said:
pain+death => a careless creation => it shouldn't be called G-d's love
...I kind of lost you here :o ...

[PrUnE]

alright heres what it meant, it meant that god loves all his creations right? but how can he love something that does nothin but cause pain and harm like a virus? obvoiusly he cant really love something like that, or worse yet even Hitler, u think he loves Hitler? my pain is gods love meanin obvoiusly there is no such thing.

[luckst4rs]

yea one of my best friends believes that how can God do all this to people? how could he make all this pain and suffering and death? and don't say it's all for a reason b/c people don't deserve to go through such tough times whether they deserve it or they will be compensated for it or whatever. it hurts me to see people so miserable. death and pain is horrible and i don't get how God can love us and do that. i don't believe people deserve it most of the time

[whuknu]

i agree. but i wouldnt go as far to say that God enjoys seeing us in pain or loves seeing us in pain. i mean sometiems i feel that way to. but ur right He created us why would He want to hurt us? thats something im having difficulty with also. but for those ppl who DO deserve it- well its just like a parent punishing a child. but for those who dont deserve it- luckst4rs i also hate when ppl say its all for a reason- Gods plan. we dont see the whole picture- i hate that- i knwo ive sed it but i hate it.

[kiyara]

remember that if it werent for the negative opposite (the bad, painful, sad, sorrow, evil...) we would not know what the good was, or have a reference point.

[whuknu]

u know that made me think of something i once heard- at a simcha someone was basically talking about taking things for granted- like a spouse or family member. i mean how often do we say "oy my head hurts?" but when our head feels fine do we say "oh my head feels wonderful"! no. its crazy- u hear somone walking down the street and hes saying "my arm my arm"! and u ask him "whats wrong with ur arm?" he sez "nothings wrong with it! its wonderful that i have an arm, hey i have two thats even better!" no because its crazy to be joyful abotu something u got- u only acknowledge it when its bothering u!

[whuknu]

maybe someone is liek that if u r id like to know cuz thats pretty interesting.

[booklet0519]

kiyara, it's true we wouldn't knowgood, but that might be better. also, god isn't evil, god gave us free will adn we choose to be bad. do you think hitler's mother loved hitler?

[J&B]

I don't think "love" of G-d is as ours. After all G-d is not human! I guess that by saying that G-d
'loves' us, one means that he looks after us... He also looked after that beast Hitler (I"sh), otherwise Hitler could not live... I hope I'm clear enough...

[booklet0519]

once god gave bodies the capacity to live adn stuff, he almost removed himself form tahat part from that part. that's why there are docters.. their all acting in god's name

[PrUnE]

actually supposly god says in the story of yonah (i dont think i spelled that right at all) hhe says he loves all his creations and thats why he doesnt want to kill this city even though they are all evil in it, (no the city wasnt jewish) but goin by that how can u love someone who is so evil, like a virus, theres no point to it but harm, how can he love a virus!? all it does is cause pain and harm and theres no above for it, so how can he love it?

[whuknu]

bc we are ALL His children, jewish or not, evil or not, we are all His children and He loves us. Even if a kid isnt the best kid, like lets a mother has 5 kids, and one is realllllly bad, does everything wrong, is mean to the other kids, the mom may punish the child, but it is most likely almost impossible for the mom to hate the child.

[PrUnE]

a virus is his child? then why doesnt he make an afterlife for it? Why would he love his "child" the virst which just hurts people?

[whuknu]

maybe i didnt write it exactly how i meant it. first of all maybe God doesnt view him as a virus? im not sure. either way i explained why God would still love this virus. even if it hurts others- the virus is still his creation, and God loves all His creations.

[PrUnE]

maybe i didnt write it exactly how i meant it. first of all maybe God doesnt view him as a virus? im not sure. either way i explained why God would still love this virus. even if it hurts others- the virus is still his creation, and God loves all His creations.Why does he love all his creations? I don't think thats true at all. I used to play legos all the time, in fact playin legos is kinda like playin god, cause ur buildin stuff and makin people, but i didnt love all the stuff i did with legos in fact i hardley liked the stuff or people i made with legos when i was a little kid.

[luckst4rs]

well you used legos as an example but im thinking like parents
parents are supposed to unconditinally love you because they made you and everything
but what about those parents that disown their kids? see its possible to not love your creation.....

[PrUnE]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^exactly.

[2face78]

its hard to comprehend but God is in a dif realm then parents. God isnt human- but even if u want ot equate the two, parents who disown their children do so on the outside. but a person only gets mad at another if they care about them or wat they do. parents are only mad because they love their child. disowning isnt a good way to show love but then again neither is spoiling.
IM OUT

[LordWombat]

That is quite el retartodish (yes i speak spanish) i mean you are implying that all parents love their babies even if they leave them in a dumpster to die. if a parent give up their children all the time. this also does not include the many unwanted children that people have. there was this lady who put her two toddlers in a car and then drove the car into the water so that they drown all because her boyfriend did not like kids. Can you seriously tell me that she loved her kids even while she was doing that? also if a parent disowns a child then obviously those parents do not have enough love for those children to deal with the problems he/she has.

[PrUnE]

Why does god love all his creations? you gotta stop with this western bull that everyone loves everyone cause its obviusly not true.

[booklet0519]

i think the idea that god loves all his creation was coined by someone unloved himself.. after all, if only one person loves you , your still loved...

i don't think he loves everyone.. i think he created the world, gave us the power of good/evil, adn sort of withdrew to see how we would do on our own. maybe it's like watching a movie.. you cna root for certain people, but you haev no control over what they do.. the only problem with this is that it means tfilla is totally worthless, and that god has no power. on the other hand, tfilla is for you, adn god's not having power just emans theres no one to blame when things go wrong other than you/boss...

not such a bad idea,... i have to work it out a little more

[whuknu]

wait booklet didnt u jsut say in the thread about getting mad at God that God controls everything? im a little confused cuz here ur saying we have free will. so which is it? God does have power or not?

I think God loves all His creations. If He didnt he wouldnt create each and every human in a pure state- steril and clean, perfect. its up to his/ her parents to teach him/her what s/he needs to know, how to be a good person, and so on. the person in turn has to learn how to fend for himself, how to be good, how to be towards others. If he takes the "wrong" path in life, it doesnt mean he wasnt born any less pure than his peer who may have chosen the "right" path.

[booklet0519]

no.. ther are people who feel god controls everything. i am not one of them. i believe we have free will. i think the word love is subjective. God isn't a person so he can't really feel emotions. maybe, and i am just throwing ideas here,(i haven't thouhgt them through yet) god is an idealist. he gives babies the same chance at goodness etc., and then lets the world try and live up to that. in that i agree with u whuknu.. it's up to the parents... i kind of feel like he's a great artist who makes a masterpiece adn then watches people's expressions while it hangs in a musuem. he can't make major changes to the canvas then, but a minor detail or two , he can change. i don;t know.. they were just ideas.

[whuknu]

Oh ok booklet now I understand u better. Thing is ive thought of that too-that God doesn’t have emotions and everything- but in that case, even though the Torah is using metaphors most of the time- why does it say that Hashem is getting angry- u know- “vayichar af Hashem” or whatever? Is anger not an emotion? And if God really doesn’t hav emotions then He wouldn’t act on His emotions and punish Bnei yisroel or neone else. If He doesn’t have emotions, then He wouldn’t have chosen a nation over another- a parent who is emotionless doesn’t need to choose one child over another- but since they have emotions, many times they might just do that.

[booklet0519]

god doesn't have emotions, so he doesn't get angry,.... in the torah when it says that its just using language for ppl.

we aren't the chosen nation... we are the choosing nation

[whuknu]

if thats the case why the hell does He care if we do something wrong? HE DOESNT IF HE DOESNT HAVE EMOTIONS! I used to also think He doesnt have human emotions- but turns out, i now think He does- PHYSICAL things are a diferent story. but if God really didnt have emotions, He wouldnt care about us and that would be the end of it. so either we are opressed cuz He doesnt care, or bc Hes mad or whatever.

And that would also mean He doesnt love us.

[PrUnE]

what does been born pure have to do with anything about god loving his creations? All that means is he makes everyone equal. Will someone plz explain how god how god could love ALL of his creations? espcially if there is no heaven or hell for them, like a virus, he creates something he loves only to vanish? Seems alittle fishy to me.

[whuknu]

prune- what i meant by we are all born pure means we arent born evil or good necesarily- we are dependant on our parents and the world around us to nurture us and to teach us the right way of life.
i agree that it is fishy to think that He abandons us after He creates us- as u know from other forums, i am struggling with something so similar. I dont think He creates us and abandons us- but i dont really know what i think in place of that... So i guess im not really much of a help to ur question...sry...

[PrUnE]

i think the belief that god created us and then left us makes the most sense even though i dont believe in it because the only real way to prove god is by how did the world get here, thats the hardest argument for non-believers but every argument atheists are able to crush.

[whuknu]

prune- i respect ur beliefs, alot of ppl have very diferent views on this- and i think thats why alot of us are struggling- some of us (that do want soemthing to believ in) cant figure out what exactly to believe in.

[booklet0519]

i never thought about love if he can't have emotions...

maybe love is part of the fabric of creation.. it was created and just is

[PrUnE]

if its a fabric creation why mention god havin it in the torah? and whuknu ummm, right. lol

[J&B]

i think the belief that god created us and then left us makes the most sense even though i dont believe in it because the only real way to prove god is by how did the world get here, thats the hardest argument for non-believers but every argument atheists are able to crush. in the same way, you could never prove he did not create us! So that means that if you chose not believe in G-d you r in fact believing: that there is no G-d. It's not like you are basing yourself in science or anything, it's just a belief.
My question is then, why would you leave 4000 years of tradition fro some other belief for which you don't have proofs either? Perhaps cuz it's easier for your conciousness not to feel bad when having a cheesburger???

[PrUnE]

lol, if only i had a nickel for everytime i heard that, ahaha i was an atheist way before i stopped keepin the laws buddy. Why do u know how many years ive been looking this up and lookin and stuff at judiasm and seeing how flawed things are, u honestly think im doing it for rebellion yes, maybe once u meet me u will say differently.

The funny thing about rebellion is this, that if ur taught one way and do another its rebellion not free choice.

[PrUnE]

Can you even think of infinty? the answer is no, no one can understand it, no one can imagine something just being there without being created so techinally you DONT BELIEVE in god. same argument right bak at u buddy.

[J&B]

i wasn't ataking you for your beliefs per se... i was just saying that "atheism" is not any less religious than "creationism". It really makes no difference at all for that statement whetehr u became an atheist yesterday, before i was born or you are planning to tomorrow...
maybe you want to share some of your discoveries about the flaws in Judaism. i dk hipnosis. i cannot make you lose your free choice.
I agreed on your right of thinking differently. All I'd like is for you to answer the question:

sincerely, what would make you leave what you wr brought up by, for a belief (atheism) that has no grounds?
[i aknowledge. i might have been wrong in suggesting that the reason would be a poor tolerance for responsibilities. sorry about that. cool?]

[J&B]

sorry, i missed the point... not understanding/grasping equals not believing?????

[forget]

whatever you believe in there is no way you can prove it. atheism, judaism, whatever. no proof so just believe what you want. or don't. it's up to you and your mind.

[PrUnE]

Well what I think is flawed is this

1.Fate
2.Shabbos
3.Davenin
4.being killed for being gay
5.only eating kosher
6.gods love
7.A religion based on how u tie ur shoes
8.tzited ( i think i spelled that wrong)
9.Talmud (aka some things are stories and some halachot)

Shall I go on?

[whuknu]

prune- as we discussed in the homosexuality thread- the sin is not being gay- its gay sexual acts so no one is dying cuz of actually being gay- thats not just judaism- that is part of the sheva mitzvot bnei noach- its an illiciti sexual relation- so any religion that does believe God (i know u dont) must not have this relation- but God does not say dont have feelings for someone of the same sex.
What about God's love?
The religion is not based at all on how u tie ur shoes! yes there is a way that we should tie our shoes and i think its ridiculus so i dont do it that way- that and i dont know how lol. but the religion is most certainly not based on how u tie ur shoes.

[PrUnE]

u miss my point, i was just sayin any laws and there are alot more, and i meant sexual acts, and just because it is a sheva mitzvot bnei noach doesnt make it a law in every religion that believes in god, thats what the torah says no jews should do. so yea, and about gods love how its not true did u not read the whole topic?

[whuknu]

sheva mitzvot bnai noahc is not just to jews -it was to every God fearing human! for example, muslims believen God- they are part of the sheva mitzvot bnei noach- therefore they cant have illicit sex either. if u r not God fearing that is a diferent stry.
i never rememeber which thread is which- sry about that- i dk what to tell u about God's love im struglling with that myself.

[PrUnE]

The shevai mitzvot beni noach was made by jews saying non-jews should do this, non-jews dont follow it kthxbye.

[whuknu]

oh really prune? thats interesting bc in reality they were made by God! Bnei yisroel did not makes up these sheva mitvot, neither did avraham or neone else. perhaps noach had what to do with it... but let me remind u, he was not a jew, a tzadik, yes but not a jew.

[PrUnE]

lol, ok you keeping tellin urself that, if it helps you sleep at night, cause I'm not gonna bother to argue with you, cause I know what I'm talking about.

[whuknu]

really? well in that case u find me the source that sez that the jewish ppl made the sheva mitzvot bnei noach.

[PrUnE]

lol u r to funny, anything I say you seem to jump on, how about this, if every religion listened to the shevi mitzvot then there would be no christainty no muslim, no hinduism, no atheism no other religion cause all of them go against one of them. Shevi mitzvot were made FROM THE TORAH commanding all non-jews what to do. Do non-jews believe in THE TORAH? NOOOOOOOOOO they dont. So why don't you stop arguin with everything I say and listen for once, it will get you far in life.

[J&B]

Well what I think is flawed is this

1.Fate
2.Shabbos
3.Davenin
4.being killed for being gay
5.only eating kosher
6.gods love
7.A religion based on how u tie ur shoes
8.tzited ( i think i spelled that wrong)
9.Talmud (aka some things are stories and some halachot)

Shall I go on? Finally u give us something we can actually discuss, not just a battle of beliefs http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif. (btw, i thought u wr atheist... what is that saying about jesus on ur signature?)

Oh! and regarding 7 mitzvot bnei noach, both u and whuknu are kinda right. It was not made up by the jews but it is not meant for every single gentile in the world... We are not like the catholic or muslim that want EVERYBODY to be like them (catholic means universal...). The 7 mitzvot are meant just for a "ger toshav", a gentile that wants to live in our kingdom without converting it's kinda laws that we have for permanent residents that aren't citizens!!!

flaws... :
1. fate? as I proved to u, atheism is also faith!
2. shabbos: since we believe in creation we commemorate that. if u wanna c it from a humanistic point of view, we wr the 1st people ever to grant rights to the worker. A wole day in every week when they don't work!!! (shabat is a fascinating topic for me, maybe we could start some thread on it)
3. if you believe in a Creator that communicates with this world...
4. this is our civil law! u wouldn't say that death penalty is a flaw in any other legal system... (I assume u read all of whuknu comments as well)
5. G-d wants to discipline us. So we are different than animals. We can say NO. if we see ham we are able to restrain ourselves, unlike a dog...!
6. need to think about this one...
7. nonsense, that would really be a flaw! fact is, u r wrong on this one.
8. tzitzit is a symbolic reminder of our commitment to the covenant we willinglfully made with G-d.
9. Talmud is the record of most of our rabinnic legal discussions. It's like the legal archives of the jewish library... absolutely, it is not meant for everyone! No need to! It is for the aspiring Jewish legalist. Regarding stories... ever heard of the term "methaphor"?

"Shall I go on?" ...More than welcome to do so!

[PrUnE]

1. fate is not faith.
2. shabbos, u still didnt even give a answer
3.look at the what would u do and the davenin thing i wrote im not gonna write it again
4.Yes i would
5.That isnt a reason why we cant eat non-kosher
6.go think all u like
7.I didnt actually mean the religion is based on it, i was just saying that its a law for no reason.
8.No it isnt, of course rabbis say it is, but u have to be crazy to think, that, tzitzit=sky cause it has alittle blue and the blue makes me think of sky and the sky makes me think of god. PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK
9.I like how the metophors that dont make sense rabbis ignore and say its a story even though its not a story, and stuff they do like they call it a halacha.
10.Why cant we wear wool and linen together?
11.The fact that Jews get tourted again and again through out history, i know rabbis love to use this to show that we are the chosen nation, but i think ive got something better, THAT THERE IF THERE IS A GOD OUT THERE HE DOESN'T LIKE THE JEWS AND WANTS THEM TO SUFFER AGAIN AND AGAIN, LIKE A SLAVE IN A DUNGEON. If we were the chosen people we would not be prosectued again and again.

[J&B]

1. sorry... fate. fate is definitely not a Jewish concept!
2. I'll start (maybe tomorrow) a new thread on this one.
3. so u assume, the Jwish concept of davening impies the negation of free will? Wrong.
4. we could keep discussing the whole night. if it is in fact something seen as a flaw by many, it could be changed! Our legal system is very dinamic. For ex. they changed the law of a rebelious son by limitting its viabily almost to zero...
5. that's exactly the reason. i don't know who do u get ur jewish concepts from... sorry.
6. i owe u this one ;)
7. agree with you. I don't think it is a legitimate law. but it doesn't represent Judaism (even the way it was formulated in the Shulchan aruch doesn't suggest it to be mandatory!).
8. that passage is deeper than what you think. I agree that it wouldn't make sense the way you understood it. The simple reason though is that by simply having a symbol (regardless of the details of the symbol itself) u already remember...
9. again, i don't know which rabbies you've been hanging around with...
10. look what i said about it in "Contradictions in the Torah and Blind Faith"
11. those rabbies again! this is by no means a proof for us being chosen! In part it is the usage of that favorite of yours free will, in part it's a divine message. But your conclusion is... it just doesn't make any sense...

[whuknu]

Prune- i must say that even though u think i disagree with u on everything - i have to tell u its not true- in fact number 11- i asked something like that... i didnt get a very good answer.
The only reason i argue with u and everyone else is simply bc i am searching- nothing ever seems 100%- ur way doesnt, as well as mine, as well as J&B's-

[PrUnE]

1. sorry... fate. fate is definitely not a Jewish concept!
2. I'll start (maybe tomorrow) a new thread on this one.
3. so u assume, the Jwish concept of davening impies the negation of free will? Wrong.
4. we could keep discussing the whole night. if it is in fact something seen as a flaw by many, it could be changed! Our legal system is very dinamic. For ex. they changed the law of a rebelious son by limitting its viabily almost to zero...
5. that's exactly the reason. i don't know who do u get ur jewish concepts from... sorry.
6. i owe u this one ;)
7. agree with you. I don't think it is a legitimate law. but it doesn't represent Judaism (even the way it was formulated in the Shulchan aruch doesn't suggest it to be mandatory!).
8. that passage is deeper than what you think. I agree that it wouldn't make sense the way you understood it. The simple reason though is that by simply having a symbol (regardless of the details of the symbol itself) u already remember...
9. again, i don't know which rabbies you've been hanging around with...
10. look what i said about it in "Contradictions in the Torah and Blind Faith"
11. those rabbies again! this is by no means a proof for us being chosen! In part it is the usage of that favorite of yours free will, in part it's a divine message. But your conclusion is... it just doesn't make any sense...first off, fate has alot to do with judaism the fact the god makes everyone with a purepose is fate buddy, but you know what, no one controls my life.
2.right...........
3.im wrong, well i proved how i was right before, and u didnt prove ur point so great im really wrong there lol. think my brother before u type.
4.right............
5.eating non-kosher is not dispiline buddy
6.yea, so far ive beaten everyone here
7.ok.
8.deeper then i think lol im a pretty deep thinker, dont feed me ur bulls***
9.lol ok, buddy
10.to lazy to care enough.
11.lol makes no sense, it makes alot more sense then us sufferin cause were the "choosen ones" let me get this striaght because god loves us he punishs us, plz dont make me laugh at u more.

Can someone say 0wnt?

[whuknu]

prune we arent here to laugh at eachother- u dont want to hear other ppls opinions - fine dont read them- but if u want to read them dont completely bash them- if u want us to respect u, uve got to respect us. God doesnt punish ppl just cuz He loves them- He punishes them bc they did wrong and He loves them so He wants to teach them.

[PrUnE]

I was kiddin when i say laigh, jeez, for some reason no on every can tell. And plus what u said, made no sense of havin to do with the jewish ppl.

[J&B]

G-d punishes the Jewish people much more than any other nation. I must agree with it.
Don't forget: we are one of the earliest nations ever in history. And it's not like we didn't go through things that might have made us dissapear... Most nations are short term living. After a few decades (or centuries) they vanish.
Most nations are worse behaving than us.
The obvious question is, why? Why do we suffer more than them, if we behave better???

I think the answer is that G-d accumulates the punishments for the other nations until they reach a point when they get it all at once. They dissapear.
the people of Israel is punished for every single thing. Cuz we r meant to b eternal!

[whuknu]

I was kiddin when i say laigh, jeez, for some reason no on every can tell. And plus what u said, made no sense of havin to do with the jewish ppl.ok fine my bad sry about that- but not everything has to do with the jewish ppl- this thread i thought wasnt necesisarily about judaism but rather God's love and ur pain.

[J&B]

prune, if u don't mind i have a personal question... -what made you become atheist?

[booklet0519]

so does judiasm believe in fate or not

[WhoAmI]

that goes into a whole question of Bechira Chofshit, but i think there is free choice, but God knows what we're gonna choose

[whuknu]

if God knows what we are choosing its not free will- bc if God knows im going to choose to go right then i have to go right- i cant just choose to go left. If there is free will then God doesnt know what we will choose- maybe He will know the outcome if i go left or if i go right- but He mjight not know what i will choose.

[iamkain]

Hey Guys,

This is a classic philosophical issue. If G-d knows everything, then how do we have free will? If we have free will, then how does G-d know everything?

The best answer I know of is the Rambam's. It's in Shmoneh Prakim, which is his introduction to his commentary of Pirkei Avot, in the eighth perek. The whole Shmoneh Prakim is a great read - I highly recommend. He also talks about it in Moreh Nevuchim, but I haven't gotten there yet.

Basically the Rambam says that we can't understand what we refer to as G-d's knowledge because G-d created us, which means he is necessarily utterly different from us. Creation means making something totally new and different, otherwise you wouldn't be creating anything.

The only understanding of knowledge we have, that we even can have, is of human knowledge. Now, if a human would know the future, then that would contradict free will, because we know what we mean when we say a person knows something. In that case, there would be no other alternative than for what the person knows will happen to happen, so the element of choice is removed.

But because we are so different from G-d, we don't, can't, know how His knowledge works. So it is wrong for us to assume that G-d's "knowledge" of the future contradicts free will, because although we say the words "G-d's knowledge" we don't really know what we're talking about. Hashem's knowledge isn't bound by the rules that bind our knowledge. It is completely different. It's very possible that the way Hashem's knowledge works is such that He can "know" something and we can still have free choice. In fact, G-d has told us that this is true.

There is no contradiction between the two. The apparent contradiction arises from ascribing human knowledge to G-d, which we can't do. The truth is, ascribing anything in this world to G-d only leads to problems. That's where the idea of negative attributes comes from, but that's maybe for a different time.

So chew on that guys. Enjoy. And look around the Resource Center for more on this stuff.
iamkain
iwillhelpyou

[WhoAmI]

aaa that just confuses me more

[J&B]

first off, fate has alot to do with judaism the fact the god makes everyone with a purepose is fate buddy, but you know what, no one controls my life.
2.right...........
3.im wrong, well i proved how i was right before, and u didnt prove ur point so great im really wrong there lol. think my brother before u type.
4.right............
5.eating non-kosher is not dispiline buddy
6.yea, so far ive beaten everyone here
7.ok.
8.deeper then i think lol im a pretty deep thinker, dont feed me ur bulls***
9.lol ok, buddy
10.to lazy to care enough.
11.lol makes no sense, it makes alot more sense then us sufferin cause were the "choosen ones" let me get this striaght because god loves us he punishs us, plz dont make me laugh at u more.

Can someone say 0wnt?First i feel i need to congratulate iamkain for the thoughtful response. Thumbs up!

Now, prune, I had promissed a thread on Shabbat, and I did as I said.
You r welcome to respond to it:
http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=497
I hope next time you list the "flaws" in Judaism, Shabbat is not one of them...

[booklet0519]

or you can just not believe in gods ability

[PrUnE]

Hey Guys,

This is a classic philosophical issue. If G-d knows everything, then how do we have free will? If we have free will, then how does G-d know everything?

The best answer I know of is the Rambam's. It's in Shmoneh Prakim, which is his introduction to his commentary of Pirkei Avot, in the eighth perek. The whole Shmoneh Prakim is a great read - I highly recommend. He also talks about it in Moreh Nevuchim, but I haven't gotten there yet.

Basically the Rambam says that we can't understand what we refer to as G-d's knowledge because G-d created us, which means he is necessarily utterly different from us. Creation means making something totally new and different, otherwise you wouldn't be creating anything.

The only understanding of knowledge we have, that we even can have, is of human knowledge. Now, if a human would know the future, then that would contradict free will, because we know what we mean when we say a person knows something. In that case, there would be no other alternative than for what the person knows will happen to happen, so the element of choice is removed.

But because we are so different from G-d, we don't, can't, know how His knowledge works. So it is wrong for us to assume that G-d's "knowledge" of the future contradicts free will, because although we say the words "G-d's knowledge" we don't really know what we're talking about. Hashem's knowledge isn't bound by the rules that bind our knowledge. It is completely different. It's very possible that the way Hashem's knowledge works is such that He can "know" something and we can still have free choice. In fact, G-d has told us that this is true.

There is no contradiction between the two. The apparent contradiction arises from ascribing human knowledge to G-d, which we can't do. The truth is, ascribing anything in this world to G-d only leads to problems. That's where the idea of negative attributes comes from, but that's maybe for a different time.

So chew on that guys. Enjoy. And look around the Resource Center for more on this stuff.
iamkain
iwillhelpyouI hope you know i wasnt talkin about free will.......................................

[J&B]

PrUne, try reading the first habit of "the 7 habits..." of S. Covey. It's really enlightening the way in which he explains freedom of choice (not free will...lol).

Tell me how was it.

[booklet0519]

the seven habits of highly effective people???

[booklet0519]

just to clarify.. i am not sure if i beleiev god can interfere, i just wanted to make sure we knew about all the options

[J&B]

the seven habits of highly effective people???yep! Second best book I've ever read (not counting the 8th habit... i didnt finish it yet).

I guarantee you that by reading that book you could understand better
Judaism, and you'll be a much better Jew!!!

Take my word, it's like more of a mussar book than self help or whatsoever.

[whuknu]

what habits does it speak of? and whats the first best book?

[PrUnE]

wow most of these posts had nothing to do with my orignial post.

[booklet0519]

i will go to the library asap and read it

[PrUnE]

Does anyone actually have an answer on my orignal post?

[J&B]

u never actualy explained ur original post...

make it make sense (to us, iliterates) ;)

[PrUnE]

Well what I was trying to say is that this thing of "god's love" or "god lovin all his creatoins" is bs

[booklet0519]

well, we kind of have been talking about it.. debating if god cares

[whuknu]

Well what I was trying to say is that this thing of "god's love" or "god lovin all his creatoins" is bs
What does that have to do with ur pain being God's love? bc the title of this thread implies that God loves to inflict pain on u.

But prune- why do you care? dont u not believen God- if u dont believen God- then something that doesnt exist cant love or hate now can it?

But in answer to ur question - iknow that i implied what u sed in other threads.... i dk maybe is not true. but if u think its not true bc God lets bad things happen....well i dont agree. And i think ive aready explained why enoug but in short- Bad things do need to happen. ppl need to die. why did 6million jews die in the holocaust? maybe God was trying to get a point across. why did 9/11 happen? God was probably trying to tell us something. I mean look after 9/11 ppl finally started to care about one another- and it took the death of thousands to make ppl realize this. So see everything He does must have a reason. u know i dont like this explanation- but to me it does make sense.

[PrUnE]

after 9/11 people cared for other ppl more for about 2 months then it went back to normal. I was just naming the poem my pain is god's love.

"why do you care"
I think there's an implied argument here: "You can't be an atheist. Why else would you dwell on the issue of the existence of God?" I won't get into this too much, since anyone with a whit of imagination could come up with some perfectly valid reasons for an atheist to care about the issues I bring up

1.Because this is a site where ppl come to talk about it
2.The US faces a religious/spiritual majority, and in my own small way I hope to offer an antidote.

The current political climate in the US seems to be "mostly spiritual, with a near-100% chance of Christianity by nightfall." Lately, everyone from Bible-bumping fundamentalists to the muddle-headed feel-goodian Oprah/Chopra/VanPraaghery have poisoned the country's intellectual well and are now trying to do the same to our legal and educational systems.

In the spirit of living by example, I try to show that there are valid reasons to be skeptical of the claims of religion. I don't do this necessarily to convert believers to atheism, but to foster respect for atheism. We aren't amoral goons who eat kitten kebabs for breakfast. Nor are we all sad, bitter people with a "god-shaped hole" in our psyches.

3. The intellectual exercise. Even if I lived in a society that valued free thought, I'd probably still keep going. After all, arguments about the existence of god interest me on an intellectual level. It fascinates me how wishful thinking colors people's logic, and it's fun to pick apart arguments to see where the logic ends and the fantasy begins. (My favorite is the Cosmological Argument, where the wishful thinking starts with the premise and doesn't let go. No unbiased person would be convinced by it.)

4. As a connection to like-minded people

And I don't necessarily mean those who agree with me to the letter. Many of my favorite responses have been from deeply religious people who understand the importance of critical thought.

[J&B]

after 9/11 people cared for other ppl more for about 2 months then it went back to normal. I was just naming the poem my pain is god's love smart one.

"why do you care"
I think there's an implied argument here: "You can't be an atheist. Why else would you dwell on the issue of the existence of God?" I won't get into this too much, since it doesn't take too much imagination to come up with some perfectly valid reasons for an atheist to care about the issues I bring up

1.Because this is a site where ppl come to talk about it
2.The US faces a religious/spiritual majority, and in my own small way I hope to offer an antidote.

The current political climate in the US seems to be "mostly spiritual, with a near-100% chance of Christianity by nightfall." Lately, everyone from Bible-bumping fundamentalists to the muddle-headed feel-goodian Oprah/Chopra/VanPraaghery have poisoned the country's intellectual well and are now trying to do the same to our legal and educational systems.

In the spirit of living by example, I try to show that there are valid reasons to be skeptical of the claims of religion. I don't do this necessarily to convert believers to atheism, but to foster respect for atheism. We aren't amoral goons who eat kitten kebabs for breakfast. Nor are we all sad, bitter people with a "god-shaped hole" in our psyches.

3. The intellectual exercise. Even if I lived in a society that valued free thought, I'd probably still keep going. After all, arguments about the existence of god interest me on an intellectual level. It fascinates me how wishful thinking colors people's logic, and it's fun to pick apart arguments to see where the logic ends and the fantasy begins. (My favorite is the Cosmological Argument, where the wishful thinking starts with the premise and doesn't let go. No unbiased person would be convinced by it.)

4. As a connection to like-minded people

And I don't necessarily mean those who agree with me to the letter. Many of my favorite responses have been from deeply religious people who understand the importance of critical thought.

I find incredible your hipocrisy of bringing arguments "of your own" when you really take it from other places (unless you are the one behind sites like "biblicalindecency", which I doubt).

Well, this shows at least your "strength" in your atheist beliefs, that you cannot even come with something of your own. And you dare to "fight" for "free thought"??? Free thought coming from "biblicalindecency" (I understand I cannot write the entire link... if you don't know what I'm talking about, pick a random phrase of PrUne's response and Google it)??? Shame on you!

I really think thelockers should do something about plagiarism.

[shufleye]

plagiarism is an important issue, and even if members can't link to other sites (since our mods just can't become responsible for all the content out there on the web -- see the guidelines for more info), that does not mean that u can't acknowledge that an idea is not your own, or in some way reference the author...

but to be fair to PrUnE, s/he did originally source his/her post via links, but removed the links after being asked to do so by a moderator.

~shufleye - yer friendly neighborhood admin

[PrUnE]

I couldnt give a link.................. whats ur point.

[PrUnE]

I couldnt post a link J&B so i decided to copy and paste

[J&B]

but to be fair to PrUnE, s/he did originally source his/her post via links, but removed the links after being asked to do so by a moderator.Then I guess I owe PrUnE my apologizes as well...

In any event, prune, I still find it kind of weak (even when bringing the sources) that your atheistic theology comes from others. That you cannot deffend it by your own. It is pathetic that you label yourself as fighter of free thought when your own philosophy is someone else's!

Forgive me, though, for the rudeness.

[PrUnE]

[QUOTE=whuknu]What does that have to do with ur pain being God's love? bc the title of this thread implies that God loves to inflict pain on u.
[QUOTE]
Its my pain that ppl believe in gods love is what the title implies.

[lost33]

prune oim confused about the whole ur pain being a sign of Gods love? wat are u tryuing to say im confused

[WhoAmI]

you mean you are against ppl who believe in god? you are pained for people who eblieve in god? the whole time i thought you meant God loves to give you pain...

[PrUnE]

Then I guess I owe PrUnE my apologizes as well...

In any event, prune, I still find it kind of weak (even when bringing the sources) that your atheistic theology comes from others. That you cannot deffend it by your own. It is pathetic that you label yourself as fighter of free thought when your own philosophy is someone else's!

Forgive me, though, for the rudeness.lol when i say free thought fighter that means that im an atheist and i have said alot of my own thoughs just a couple happen to be taken from bibical indencney (aka irrevend mike) but that doenst matter cause if u find that sad, then i find it is sad that your veiws of god comes from a source not ur own mind called bum bum The TORAH and other rabbis.
Thanks for your time

[PrUnE]

No it pains me that ppl think god loves them and everything.

[lost33]

y does it pain u that pple beleive in God and in His love? how does it affect u in any way what pple beielve? and how does the topic my pain is Gods love show this? ur pain is God loveing u?? please explain how someone elses feelings causes u such considerable pain that u feel the need to lash out here?

[J&B]

lol when i say free thought fighter that means that im an atheist and i have said alot of my own thoughs just a couple happen to be taken from bibical indencney (aka irrevend mike) but that doenst matter cause if u find that sad, then i find it is sad that your veiws of god comes from a source not ur own mind called bum bum The TORAH and other rabbis.
Thanks for your timeHalleluyah! That was my main point all along!!! You, atheists, aren't any more scientific than us, 'creationists'. I'd rather base myself in the Torah than in "irreverend mike".
I just find it quite hipocrital of you to condemn us for following halacha, which you think to go against freedom of thought, when you have also another 'halacha' of your own, given by a third person...
Anyway, calling atheism "free thought" is erroneous and misleading.

[lost33]

athieism in its very nature does not allow for free thought, ie by declaing urself an athiest u are denying the existance of God, you are limiting your thought to the possibility that God exists. there is no such thing as truly free thought just as thier is nothing that can be proven absolutely, it is all a matter of belief

[booklet0519]

are you an atheist or an agnostic?

[WhoAmI]

atheist or not God has to exist, otherwise where did evrything come from?

[PrUnE]

Halleluyah! That was my main point all along!!! You, atheists, aren't any more scientific than us, 'creationists'. I'd rather base myself in the Torah than in "irreverend mike".
I just find it quite hipocrital of you to condemn us for following halacha, which you think to go against freedom of thought, when you have also another 'halacha' of your own, given by a third person...
Anyway, calling atheism "free thought" is erroneous and misleading.What are you talking about, him arguin that god doesnt exist is not following a halacha.

[PrUnE]

y does it pain u that pple beleive in God and in His love? how does it affect u in any way what pple beielve? and how does the topic my pain is Gods love show this? ur pain is God loveing u?? please explain how someone elses feelings causes u such considerable pain that u feel the need to lash out here?Read the poem that I wrote in the first post which started this topic.

[PrUnE]

athieism in its very nature does not allow for free thought, ie by declaing urself an athiest u are denying the existance of God, you are limiting your thought to the possibility that God exists. there is no such thing as truly free thought just as thier is nothing that can be proven absolutely, it is all a matter of beliefAtheism is not a belief, a lack in faith is not faith in something. In christiany even if u dont believe in god or jesus or the holy ghost and yada yada u go straight to hell even for the very thought, when u are a free thought it means u think what u want and not what ppl tell u u cant think, like even the torah says u cant think about jealousy (i think i spelled that wrong) when u are free thought you can think of it, get it now?

[PrUnE]

are you an atheist or an agnostic?I am a Atheist

[lost33]

athiesm is a beleif its the beleif in the non existance of God. Look beliving in God and not beleiving in God cannot be proven, it is all beleif. you have no proof for athiesm just as i have no proof for my judiasim. by stating that you are an athiest u beleive in the ideas of athiesim, you beleive in the non existance of God. By doing that you are limiting your so called freedom of thought, your are denying the possibilty that God does exist, by doing that your thoughts arent truly free. my being jewish and beleivng in the torah does not mean that i think only wat pple tell me to, my beleifs come fomr the evry fact that i have freedom of thought, i have come to beleive in what i do because through thiking about why i want to be jewish, why i want to be commited to the torah. i chose what to think and what not to, i did on my own not because someone told me what to and not to think! i chose not to think about things not bec i am not free but bec i dont want to! i chose of my own free will not to, that is freedom of thought, freedom doesnt mean that i think of every thought, i can still think immpral thoughts there is no one stopping me, the only thing that stops me is because i have come to realize that such thoughts are counterproductive in molding myslef into the person i want to be. i chose freely to think and do what i want not bec of wat pple said i should do and not do.
yuo say that u want to have true freedom of thought, then you cant be an athiest bec u are not allowing the thought that God does exist! no one can truly have freedom of thought, it is impossible bec you cant prove anything absolutly, i cant prove to you my relgion and my beleif in God as absolutly true just as you cant prove your athiesim as absolutly true, absolutes dont exist, bec of that there can not be true complete freeodm of thought you will always have to limit yourself to one thought one idea in yuor case it is your athiesim, in my it is my religion and my beleif in God.

[PrUnE]

athiesm is a beleif its the beleif in the non existance of God. .O please how can a lack of faith require faith?

[lost33]

athiesim is not the lack of faith it is the disbelief in any higher being and besides by saying u hvae a lack of faiht r u implying that u r not as athiest as u seem to want to be? perhaps ur still "shockingly" an agnostic! do u dare admit that perhaps there may be such thing as God!?

[PrUnE]

I have complete lack of faith, so im a Athiest.

[lost33]

u keep on repeating a complete lack of faith....in waht? in judaism, in religion, in God? a lack of faith does not make u an athiest

[PrUnE]

lack of faith in god.

[lost33]

a lack of faiht in God does not make u an athiest. athiesim denies the existance of God u seem to be saying that u just have a lack of faith in God, do u deny that that God exists or are really an agnostic

[PrUnE]

I deny that god exists why? because Of the lack in faith.