Contradictions in the Torah and Blind Faith

[kiyara]

Admins note: This thread was split from a conversation taking place on the 'Virginity' board...

anyways, we know that the stuff is against the Torah, and some poeple liek me, even believe in the Torah, like, a lot, but it seems so far removed and stuff. i mean we sit in school in tanach/chumash/navi class and we go thru specific and detailed mefarshim about contradictions and what could certain things in the torah mean? well gosh. that really turns me on...and the teacher is of the acceptance that we are all believing jews, but if i erwally cared and payed attention in tanach class, id be totally turned off by all the stirot in the torah , b/c the answers of mefarshim are kind of weak and far fetched. thats teh fact- and its probaly really bad of me to say that i dont care, but i dont care- its treated like another dumb class that i baiscally cant wait till it ends, with quizes, tests, and homework. not cool. if the Torah is indeed different that history, let us treat it differently.

[whuknu]

My tanach class- i love it. sometimes anyways. my teachers great. but sometimes i get frusterated with mefarshim- i dont get where they get off making up stuff- even if they say its not made up it all seems made up. but what does this have to do with sex? maybe we should start a new thread for this? just a thought

[J&B]

Look. I totally agree that blind faith is wrong. As a matter of fact, it is a CHRISTIAN concept!!!

We should try to understand everything we do. To understand, and to do it because we understand it. But we need to try to understand it.
We all deserve answers. When we look for them.

That's exactly what i was trying to do. I was trying to prove some stuff that people take for granted. I was trying to show its logic. But I found out that people see it as narrow-minded!!!
So what do you expect from openmindenness? To just give up and say that something given by our Creator is simply wrong because we don't understand it? I think we should at least give G-d the benefit of the doubt and try to find a logic behind His words...

[whuknu]

i think we thought u were narrow minded bc u may have come off that way... u might not have meant to, but sometimes that happens. See for example b4 i thought u were saying that since we arent as smart as God we dnt deserve the answer or something along the lines of that now ur saying that we should have answers. whtvr it happens it was miscommunication. its very hard to find clarity in what God says/does.

[J&B]

its very hard to find clarity in what God says/does. No it's not. It's impossible...
We don't think like him, in the first place...

[whuknu]

well then how can i follow it? (not that i dont, but if its impossible to understand then HOW can i?) if u dont understnad what a friend is doing u dont do it too- i know friend and God dont compare but still.

[J&B]

So the question now is: how can I follow G-d without understanding Him, and not call it blind faith???

I need to think about it... Any help anyone?

[whuknu]

pretty much -thats the question...

[J&B]

i think i might have a thread...
we do know some specific things.
we do know that we made a bilateral covenant with G-d.
That we accepted the Jewish law.
that our Creator has the obvious 'right' to tell His creation what to do.
We can know this without understanding G-d.
What we can't really understand fully is the reasons of the mitzvot. yet, we could find some logic to it. It doesn't need to be what Hashem meant (that, again, is impossible to find out). It's enuff if we could just find some reason that is constructive for our Jewish lives and that satisfies our common sense.

And if we can't find a reason, then we are still supposed to keep the mitzvot cuz of the covenant thing. We are legally bound to our commitment back then in Sinai... And this we can understand. and it's not blind faith (in the same way, i believe u would stop in a red light even though you dont really understand why it;s there. no1 wuold tell you that you are having blind faith in the motor vehicla department)

[whuknu]

"yet, we could find some logic to it"
Really? in that case what is the logic in that i cant wear a piece of clothes made of linen and wool?

I stop at a red light i understnad the dmv- if u dont want to stop then thats fine- get a ticket or die (God forbid)...i understand that its for my protection and urs and every other driver that i have to stop at a red light.

[J&B]

"yet, we could find some logic to it"
Really? in that case what is the logic in that i cant wear a piece of clothes made of linen and wool? Interesting that you chose that specific mitzvah, it's kinda a paradigm for "hukim" the mitzvot u don't do them cuz of their logic... Many say that it's because it used to be the kind of garments used for idolatry. As many of those things, G-d forbade them to the general public while prescribing it for the bet hamikdash (also altars...).
In any case, just the fact that it somehow restricts our clothing, is logical enough by itself... the same way that not eating pig is meant to train our discipline and not to eat whatever we feel like eating, so shaatnez, in a way, is saying that you can't wear all that you please. I just said "some logic"...
I stop at a red light i understnad the dmv- if u dont want to stop then thats fine- get a ticket or die (God forbid)...i understand that its for my protection and urs and every other driver that i have to stop at a red light. the same exact thing applies to mitzvot then! either you do them because you understand the benefit they have or u do them because u r afraid of the "ticket"/hell...

[whuknu]

i know its chok that i am not supposed to udnerstand- yet u sed that we could find logic to mitzvot! thats exactly why i chose it- i was challenging u (hehe, sry)
Arent the laws of tzniut enough in saying we cant wear all we please? and why cant i wear or eat what i please? Christianity are the ones that believe ur not supposed to get pleasure bc it is sin- no us! in fact getting pleasure for us is a mitzvah ( i think) and this is why we say brachot b4 and after eating- since we did get pleasure from it- and when we buy new clothes.
But i dont even know what im following!!!

[J&B]

pleasure and other material things are allowed and encouraged. But they are also supposed to follow certain divine guidelines, just to help us keeping them under control

[whuknu]

i dk im not so into that... this religion has to many contradictions.

[J&B]

i think you are just very tired... I liked the direction this thread was following, let's continue some other time! Good nite!!!

[J&B]

good nite whuknu

[baseball guy]

You have to take this step by step.
1) Do you believe in G-d?
2) Do you believe G-d to be the author of the Torah?
3) Do you believe the Talmud is the correct interpretation of the Torah?
4) Do you believe in Rabbinic law?

Where does your belief stop? Maybe I can help answer some things.

[whuknu]

yes
yes
not sure
not sure
thats my problem i dk what to beleive.

[J&B]

...
...
3) and 4) : what makes rabbinic law and the talmud the right interpretation of the Torah is - us!!! The Jewish people!
What the jewish supreme court (I looooove this term ;) is, is a representative of the Jewish nation! in fact, we choose them ourselves!!! So, it's not a matter of intelligence, of trust, or of faith, what makes them right is their status as a representative of the jewish ppl...

[whuknu]

ok fine- i can accept that...but what about when they all have contradictions? do they vote on it or something?

[J&B]

Yep.
The talmud records many times the discussions before they were passed into law. Talmud is meant to be studied by scholars, Jewish legalists to be! I completely disagree with learning it in high school... there is really no point!!!

[baseball guy]

whuknu - If we dont trust the talmud, then how do we know what anything in the torah means. So should we simply remember the sabbath and guard it? Should we only not eat a calf in its mothers milk? Now, I agree with you that some of the talmud was written b/c they lived in a different time and some things must be adapted. However, if you disagree with the premise that the Talmud is divinely inspired, then why would G-d give us the Torah without explaining at all what he meant?

[whuknu]

whuknu - If we dont trust the talmud, then how do we know what anything in the torah means. So should we simply remember the sabbath and guard it? Should we only not eat a calf in its mothers milk? Now, I agree with you that some of the talmud was written b/c they lived in a different time and some things must be adapted. However, if you disagree with the premise that the Talmud is divinely inspired, then why would G-d give us the Torah without explaining at all what he meant?
its not so much that i dont trust the talmud- its that all these rabbis are arguing the whole time- how do they know whose right???? whtvr i guess J&B's answer was sufficient. and i dont see why waiting 1 hr or 3 hours or 6 hrs after meat means the same thing as dont cook a kid in its mothers milk! ok fine dont even eat it together, but why not one after the other? and in that case- why can i eat cheese and then beef but not vice versa???? He did explain what He did- that was what He told moshe at sinia- which is now what the talmud is supposed to be!

[J&B]

All right. This replay might become long... Sorry http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Every written text in the world is a group of symbols combined together. If I was shown chinese texts, I would just see some forms of ink on a white sheet of paper. So what makes me understand a text and transform it into an understandable message??? Well, it is something that I dont have of Chinese texts (that's y I can't understand it!).

What is it that makes you understand that the "literal" meaning of "ayin tahat ayin" is really an eye for an eye? Modern Hebrew???

I hope I'm being clear enough so far...

So, Torah Shebichtav, the witten text, needs some system by which to be interpreted. This system is called "Torah SheBeAlPeh". The ToShBe"AP is the system by which I can read the Torah Shebichtav and actually understand it. Thus, when I read "Lo tebashel gdi bahalev imo" the meaning to me is "you shall not cook, or moreover eat, a 'bhemah tehorah' with milk of a 'bhemah tehorah'. It does not mean anymore "a goath in its mother milk"!

The obvious question is, what determines then the "Torah SheBeAlPeh"!

Ramba"m says that "Torah SheBeAlPeh" is made by two factors:
1. Whatever was explicitly explained to Mosheh in Sinai
2. Whatever interpretation the Sanhedrin gave, for every other detail that was not disclosed to Mosheh (Dinim Muflayim).

Since number 1 is pretty obvious, I'll focus on 2. Just not to discourage anyone by being too long, I'll keep the explanation of 2 for another replay.

(...to be continued)

[whuknu]

So, Torah Shebichtav, the witten text, needs some system by which to be interpreted. This system is called "Torah SheBeAlPeh". The ToShBe"AP is the system by which I can read the Torah Shebichtav and actually understand it. Thus, when I read "Lo tebashel gdi bahalev imo" the meaning to me is "you shall not cook, or moreover eat, a 'bhemah tehorah' with milk of a 'bhemah tehorah'. It does not mean anymore "a goath in its mother milk"!
What i meant was why do we have to wait so long after meat- i mean honestly- does God really care if we wait 1-6 hrs?

[J&B]

What i meant was why do we have to wait so long after meat- i mean honestly- does God really care if we wait 1-6 hrs?Oh! Not again the G-d's caring thingy!!! ---LOL:p
If you wanna know exactly the legal reason and process that lead to the 6 hours halacha... oh man, you'll need to go through like 15% of what a rabbi goes to become a rabbi. Seriously! (Massechet Holin +/-105b)

btw, did you bother reading what I wrote b4? any comments on that? Should I continue?;)

[whuknu]

i did 'bother' to read it.
sry but I just think that when my time comes and im being judged - God's going to ask 'why on earth would u wait so long after meat?'- i cant help but think he's going to laugh at me.
yeh u should continue- i thought most of it was ok.

[J&B]

Lol

don't worry about G-d not liking our halachah... That exactly is the concept of "lav bashamayim hee"!!! G-d doesn't interfere with our laws after they (and their legal system) were given to us in Sinai.

We, the Jewish people, make our laws (off course respecting some divine parameters and instructions...).

Do you think Jefferson or Madisson (Has Veshalom... I'm not cmparing him to G-d but in the sense that they both set a constitution and a legal system) would laugh at us having women to vote? Would they laugh at all amendments the American people added to the constitution? No! The constitution itself allows amendments!

So the Torah allows the rabbies to dictate SOME (B"H, my next replay...) rules in Jewish law.

[di Silentio]

I'm not sure where J&B is going with this, but it sounded to me like whuknu is asking not what God thinks about the laws themselves, but what He thinks about whether we keep them or not.

Connecting this to things that were said before, it seems that the question extends to mitzvot that look arbitrary, like shaatnez. The question isn't "why does God care about my clothing?" I think the question is, "Why does God care about that specific way of dress? Why not wool and cotton, or silk and linen...?"

Good questions.

I think God does care about what we do. As in any loving relationship, even small favors and other things are important to both partners - and just as mitzvot are important to God, they should, all of them, be important to us.

And why does God seem arbitrary sometimes? I don't know.

I think that there is an underlying spirituality to the world, and it's possible that the mixture of wool and linen creates some spiritual clash that we cannot detect.

It's also possible that wool and linen represent animal products and plant products respectively, and that this prohibition is teaching us to recognize categories in the world, to distinguish between values and concepts.

Or maybe there is something to be said for doing something for someone you love even if there is no way at all of understanding why they want it done for them (and so we must do some things for God that we do not understand).

And as far as the 1 vs 3 vs 6 hours thing - the argument came because there were different rabbis who interpreted the Torah in different ways. Why they chose these times is based on their various understandings of how long meals last (meat + milk @ same meal = bad news), and other combinations of complicated halachic rules, mixed opinions, and passed on traditions. In other words, I don't know exactly how it works, but I do know they weren't pulling numbers out of a hat.

I hope that helped!