Davening

[whuknu]

I actually just thought of something on this topic. One must be on high level in order to speak with God- in other words, who am i to speak with God? Who am I to ask Him for things? we are taught that we can ask Him anything- but really we cant - bc forget His not responding- why should we be allowed???? it is so difficult for me to daven- i used to be able to daven ... then i realized how much it wasnt working... i realized that God maybe isnt listening- i start to think that Im davening so hard that God doesnt care! If He cared wouldnt He listen? The whole topic is confusing...

[CptCatz]

bc forget His not responding..............If He cared wouldnt He listen?
theres a big differance between responding and listening. if there is a god, whos to say hes not listening?

[Comfortably Dumb]

I actually just thought of something on this topic. One must be on high level in order to speak with God- in other words, who am i to speak with God? Who am I to ask Him for things? we are taught that we can ask Him anything- but really we cant - bc forget His not responding- why should we be allowed???? it is so difficult for me to daven- i used to be able to daven ... then i realized how much it wasnt working... i realized that God maybe isnt listening- i start to think that Im davening so hard that God doesnt care! If He cared wouldnt He listen? The whole topic is confusing...

God doesn't have to listen to you because He's God, damn it. God can do whatever he pleases. Which is why He's the Man...or Woman?

[PrUnE]

Well I think davenin is flawd. Why you ask? Simply because you ask god to change your life and actually take away your free will. Lets say in davein you ask god to make your boss give you a raise and god says ok, so all the sudden he puts in ur bosses head to give you a raise, and makes him give you a raise, right there he simply took that guys free will away.

[castophrenia]

Maybe when people are davening they aren't asking God for help like, "Get it in my boss's head to give me a raise" they're asking for something like "help me get through [whatever] emotionally".

I don't know. I haven't prayed for awhile.

[Comfortably Dumb]

Well I think davenin is flawd. Why you ask? Simply because you ask god to change your life and actually take away your free will. Lets say in davein you ask god to make your boss give you a raise and god says ok, so all the sudden he puts in ur bosses head to give you a raise, and makes him give you a raise, right there he simply took that guys free will away.

Screw free will. You got a raise, did you not?

[J&B]

whuknu, you always come with the deepest and smartest topics!

Davening, our direct communication with G-d, is one of the main fundamentals in our Jewish lives. We believe that G-d cares about every single one of us. That He listens.
Why would He care? Well, that's the argument that lead the philosophers to believe He doesn't really care. That the world is run by itself. We believe that G-d does care. That He does listen. Perhaps He will not fulfill all of our desires, but He surely is aware of them.
Off course it shoud be difficult to daven. To stand in front of your Creator and 'bother' him about your daily matters... But u know what? That's exactly what is expected from us when we daven. That very feeling.

Just take it as a great gift, which you don't really deserved, but a gift.

Besides, davening has more than jusk asking. Mainly it is thanking. And recognizing. When we daven we are saying that all those little things we take for granted, like intelligence, health, etc., have a Divine source.

Maybe it's better to understand that davening is not for G-d. He doesn't need it even to know what you want. He just knows it! Davening is for ourselves.

A question I always had is, how does davening change anything at all? I mean, G-d will do what He wants anyway... I'd really appreciate some thoughts on that....

[whuknu]

Cptctz- maybe ur right- maybe Hes listening- but why wouldn’t He respond??
CD- maybe God doesn’t have to listen to me- but then, does He care about me? Or am I just some person He created and then doesn’t care about- to make a comparison- is God a parent who abandons His children, or is God the parent that loves and nurtures and listend to His childrens needs?
Prune- that’s an interesting way to look at it- but maybe when one asks God for a raise he doesn’t get it cuz he is just asking God for a raise- maybe he should be asking God to help him to better in work and in turn EARNING for himself a raise that he deserves- that way the boss is deciding to give the man raise based on the fact that he deserves it- not cuz God possessed him.
Castrophenia- some ppl might ask for things like a raise- for me I usually ask God to help me- but it has also been a while since I REALLY davened out of a siddure with realy kavana- usually I pray by talking to God (when im alone so I don’t look crazy, hehe) just bc I feel that reading out of a book doesn’t do much of anything.
J&B- thank u! but how can you thank God if for example you aren’t healthy? (I don’t mean a cold or the flu) or what if ur not so smart? What if I don’t feel davening helps ME? I know its not for God- God doesn’t need our prayers. Its not like I only turn to god when things are bad- I also turn to Him when things are good and thank Him. But what if I have no one else to turn to to HELP me- not just LISTEN to me- shouldn’t I be able to turn to God? But in answer to your question- maybe God will change His mind? Maybe if you show Him or whtvr…

[Comfortably Dumb]

CD- maybe God doesn?t have to listen to me- but then, does He care about me? Or am I just some person He created and then doesn?t care about- to make a comparison- is God a parent who abandons His children, or is God the parent that loves and nurtures and listend to His childrens needs?

God has a purpose for everyone. Whether you're working in a toll booth, or the CEO of Microsoft. To say he doesn't care is stretching it. Maybe he just cares about you less, but he cares.

[whuknu]

God has a purpose for everyone. Whether you're working in a toll booth, or the CEO of Microsoft. To say he doesn't care is stretching it. Maybe he just cares about you less, but he cares.
so ur saying maybe God, for example, cares more about u than me (im not saying He does or doesnt im just giving an example...)? I dk, so if Gods going to listen to me- i might as well say how i feel rather than somethign thats written in some book by some dead person who wrote what HE feels, and not what I feel?

[Comfortably Dumb]

so ur saying maybe God, for example, cares more about u than me (im not saying He does or doesnt im just giving an example...)? I dk

Yes. Exactly what I'm saying.

so if Gods going to listen to me- i might as well say how i feel rather than somethign thats written in some book by some dead person who wrote what HE feels, and not what I feel?

There's times in davening for personal prayers, and there's times in daven for that ritual King David junk.

[whuknu]

well i dont think God cares more about one person over another- i think that would be just awful...all though maybe He does- i guess that would solve alot of answers...and make me feel a bit suicidal if I knew God cared about everyone else more than me- not that He should care about me more than everyone else but rather the same as everyone else- treat us all as equals.
Why should i say all that "david junk" if its not how i feel? and the personal prayers- does this mean i can make up my own and say them in english? cuz all ive found are for teshuva and for livelihood...

[Comfortably Dumb]

well i dont think God cares more about one person over another- i think that would be just awful...

Valid pont. I can respect that.

all though maybe He does- i guess that would solve alot of answers...

k.

and make me feel a bit suicidal if I knew God cared about everyone else more than me- not that He should care about me more than everyone else but rather the same as everyone else- treat us all as equals.

Don't do that. A life is a terrible thing to waste. Especially yours. You're one sharp thinker. Life is always gonna rain on your parade, it's your choice to bring an umbrella...or something of that matter.
Why should i say all that "david junk" if its not how i feel?
It's the same with keeping kosher and whatnot. It's all ritual.

and the personal prayers- does this mean i can make up my own and say them in english?

Knock yourself out.

[whuknu]

CD- I must thank you- what u just sed really made me feel good...
for respecting my opinion... and giving me one of the best compliments i have ever gotten... I dont plan on committing suicide... although i must admit there have been times where i have thought about it (mostly when i was a bit younger)
but r u saying that i should only do what i want or feel? bc we cant just pick and choose...
and i already do tell God what i feel and all that...

[lost33]

look davening cant just be say wtvr u want and have some sort of talk wiht God. imagine how many times do u think ud actually daven if all u did was sit down and think about the problems in ur life and ask God to solve them and then ud move one woiht the rest of ur life, vbery little. we are human and humans are weak i do9ubt many of us would eb able to really establish a connnection wiht God if we got up andsaid wat we felt like and moved on. we need order and structure, ie tefilah. and u wnat to add ur own thoughts and feelings well ther eis place for that in tefilah and also whose to say that tefilah is only wat u find in a siddur contemplating God and thinking about y u need to thank him anbd wta u wish God would do for u or help u wiht is just as important. but organized davening is the only way for pple to be able to stick to the system set up in teh torah. it is only through order that we would ever be able to live as God fearing torah commited Jews.

[PrUnE]

ok whats the point of davenin if ur thanking? just thank on ur own with ur own words and not anyone elses. even if he got the raise,as i said again i would rather a soceity where everyone is terrible but we all have free will then a society that has no free will and is all good

[whuknu]

lost33- i see what ur saying- but i dont think that its that way with everyone- when i daven from a siddur- i feel feelingless- i am jsut saying what everyone else is saying, its not diferent! when i talk to God and tell Him how i really feel, i feel a deeper connection- and i dont just move on! i always talk to him (i sound crazy i know). but its bc i know God is a part of my day to day life (i know not eveyone here agrees with that but thats hwo i feel). a friend who is a baal teshuva told me she became frum bc she realized she needed God in her life- when everything was going wrong, God was who she was able to turn to.

[whuknu]

sry forgot to finsih that- therefore i was trying to say that that is how i realize that god might really be in my day to day life- might not make sense to others but it does to me.

[lost33]

whuknu thats excatly wat i was trying to say. its just that wether or not u may get davening in a siddur its there for a reason i mean we havent been saying ot for 2000 yrs just bec its in the siddur obviuosly there ust eb some emaning behind it. i mean im not gonna say i completely get davening and all the things i say every day but for me its like i say them just ebc by saying it i somehow try to reqch a leevl where i will be in the right state of mind to really talk to God. dunno if that makes sense but all i know that without an organized davening i doubt anyone would end up davining at all. so whetehr we understand tefilot as they r in the siddur it doesnt mean they are menaingless obviuosly we rnt on a level to truly iundewrstand them as they are suppised to be understood. thats oiur challenege to rise up to the level to be able ti understand what the JEwish pple have been sayingfor 2000 yrs and truly pray to God.

[Comfortably Dumb]

CD- I must thank you- what u just sed really made me feel good...
for respecting my opinion... and giving me one of the best compliments i have ever gotten... I dont plan on committing suicide... although i must admit there have been times where i have thought about it (mostly when i was a bit younger)

You're most certainly welcome.

but r u saying that i should only do what i want or feel? bc we cant just pick and choose...
and i already do tell God what i feel and all that...

I'm saying to do what makes you feel good. If you want to do organized prayers, do organized prayers. If you want to do private prayers, do private prayers. If you want to do both, go head. The point is that God will always hear you out. He's cool like that.

[whuknu]

I dont know... i think for me davening has turned into something emotional. I cant just be reading someone elses feelings... believe me i pray on a daily basis- but not in a minyna, not in from a siddur. I used to daven from a siddur and thats what my relationship was with Hashem- ok b4 breakfast i pray get it over with say someone elses feelings, tty again at mincha...but now its not, now God is someone I can turn to...not just at mincha or shacharit but rather all day... whether i think Hes listeinging or not is a diferent story... but its not like i got much of a response reading from the artscroll (whether i deseve one or not is not the issue here)

[whuknu]

CD- the problem is, i dont feel He does... sure He hears me- but Hes got other things to deal with... but Hes God- cant He deal with EVERYTHING? sure im not the most important person, but my point here is it doesnt feel like He hears me...

[lost33]

whuknu dunno for me i know that if i didnt daven in an organized way then i prob would never daven, it is only trhough structure that i am able to connetc wiht God so dunno. i just have a questrion bec i know that there will always be a siddur there if i want t o daven but can u actually say that u will always be able to just pray to God on your own that u will be abel to make that connection? what happens if you cant? are youy gonna just stop praying all together?

[whuknu]

i dont think so.... lately my life has been extra hard... and so what do i say to God when i pray? i beg Him for His help! and when i get it? I thank Him profusely! but not only that, even though I knwo He knows- i give Him updates of my life! thanking Him for this, asking for help on that, or some sort of advice... i dont think I will lose it...

[lost33]

then your lucky, dunno all i know is that there is a reaosn for structured davening otherwise why has it been around for so long? dunno i guess each person has t find the spot they fit into when it comes to davening and find it through the siddur dunno i guess ill just tell you go ask a rabbi hahaha they seem to know this davening thing down pat

[whuknu]

maybe i will bring it to rabbi P.'s forum

[J&B]

Actually, the actual structure of davening has not been around so long... At least the most part of it... Some say that that order has some mysticism.
I think though, that it has more to do with an established formal way of approaching the King of the world.
U know, once, a hazzan would go up to the tevah to pray and he would just start saying whatever he pleased (following some minimal guidelines). What we have today is the most 'popular' combination of prayers.
Before that time, dvening would be completely up to the person. everybody would simply say what he felt, as long as he prayed once a day.
Perhaps, if you feel to restrained by the formal structure, you should try to find your spots in davening where you can just freely connect with G-d. I do it in the brachah of "Shomea Tfilah". Sometimes, I dedicate some time at that moment, and try to imagine myself talking to a king. I ask for things and thank for everything I have.

[whuknu]

well if b4 we could daven what we pleased- why cant i today?

[lost33]

sure u can daven wat u want no one is saying u cant but perhaps one of the reasons for the organized davening thing was because not everyone can do wat u do maybe not everyone could just get up in the morning and start to ahve a conversation with God as if He was some random guy on the street dunno i mean i think that u cant pick and choose which halachot u r gonna do so if theres the halacha of tefilah (ie siddur ect) then i would say that u should do it for the only fact that it is halacha whether u understand it at this point in ur life or not, i mean if u feel halacha is correct in every aspect then it must be here as well so i would continue with organized tefilah and try to look into to it to find the deeper meaning behind the words. dunno i wouldnt feel comfortable getting up everymorning and composing my own tefilot to Hashem, its not exactly like talking to ur friends or somethijng. for me i see organized tefikot as a good thing i daven and i think about wat im saying, just saying the words does nothing but if u think about wat u r saying and u try to understand the meaning of the wirds perhaps u will find ur place in tefilah.

[J&B]

u can! u r a girl! halachically, you need to pray once a day and you can say in that prayer whatever you please!!!
ask R Shu to make sure...

[whuknu]

aready posted it and rabbi p's corner.... but if i was a guy i wouldnt be able to do this? that kinda sux im glad im a girl

[forget]

i think you should be able to daven the way you want to. i really don't think God only listens to our prayers that are said in a certain format. i personally find it totally unmoving and unmotivational when i'm sitting in davening for over an hour everyday and i hear general mumbling of the same hebrew words. i think it gives you some guidelines but if you can think of your own stuff to say in your own language than that's cool. If God's gonna listen he's gonna listen whatever way you wanna say it. i also think the length of davening is horrible. i don't think an hour of davening needs to be said every morning, especially for kids with short attention spans. davening is longer than our classes....

[Comfortably Dumb]

CD- the problem is, i dont feel He does... sure He hears me- but Hes got other things to deal with... but Hes God- cant He deal with EVERYTHING? sure im not the most important person, but my point here is it doesnt feel like He hears me...

He's God. He's everywhere at once, no? What makes you think He can't hear you? I mean, you're talking about the same Dude that created the world in six days.

[whuknu]

exactly-so why do i feel ignored? (i know what u r probably going to say... but the answer just doesnt work for me)

[Comfortably Dumb]

exactly-so why do i feel ignored? (i know what u r probably going to say... but the answer just doesnt work for me)

Well, if my answers weren't helpful, then you're just going to have to sit back and find out for yourself.

[whuknu]

but i cant sit back- i gotto search!

[PrUnE]

but i cant sit back- i gotto search!so listen to what I write on the forums and back me up, im a powerfully ally u know :-).

[J&B]

i looooved R Shu's response!

[whuknu]

where is Rabbi Shu's response? do u mean rabbi p?
Prune- we tend to not see things the same... but i do like ur ideas, they are interesting.

[J&B]

where is Rabbi Shu's response? do u mean rabbi p?
yep.
my bad...
apologize.

[Blink]

Well I think davenin is flawd. Why you ask? Simply because you ask god to change your life and actually take away your free will. Lets say in davein you ask god to make your boss give you a raise and god says ok, so all the sudden he puts in ur bosses head to give you a raise, and makes him give you a raise, right there he simply took that guys free will away.

it doesnt work like that; lets take ur example Hashem may answer ur prayer for a raise by creating a situation in some ones life where they will need ur skills so they come to ur boss and say i need such-and-such done, so he thinks of u and this gives u a chance to get the raise.
Hashem wont just make ur boss think "i better give him a raise", he will use ppl make the opportunity arise. thats why some ppl say Hashem split the reed sea by using winds; he uses nature,science and humans as tools to some times fulfil the wishes of other humans, but doesnt do it to conflict with their free will. thats wut makes him so amazing.

[Blink]

I actually just thought of something on this topic. One must be on high level in order to speak with God- in other words, who am i to speak with God? Who am I to ask Him for things? we are taught that we can ask Him anything- but really we cant - bc forget His not responding- why should we be allowed???? it is so difficult for me to daven- i used to be able to daven ... then i realized how much it wasnt working... i realized that God maybe isnt listening- i start to think that Im davening so hard that God doesnt care! If He cared wouldnt He listen? The whole topic is confusing...


thats is the fundamental core of where idolatory came from, the nations saw the planets and thought G-D had put them above them as they were greater than them, thinkin they were not great enough to speak to G-D directly, they served and honoured the planets, this eventually caused them to lose track of whome they were serving, they just served the planets.
Mebe u shud look at ur actions as to why G-D isnt answering ur prayers; if u dont treat ur fellow humans with respect, they G-D wont treat u with respect (im not judging, jsut guessing and giving reasons-no disrespect meant)If G-D didnt care about u, why are u still alive? Why did he create u? Cud ur life be worse? mebe he is lisntening but his answer is no, i once read somewhere that if u find ur prayers arnt answered then u shud examine ur actions. remember he knows wut is best for u, mebe he knew that if such-and-such happened, it cud make things bad in ur life and screw it up.

[whuknu]

thats is the fundamental core of where idolatory came from, the nations saw the planets and thought G-D had put them above them as they were greater than them, thinkin they were not great enough to speak to G-D directly, they served and honoured the planets, this eventually caused them to lose track of whome they were serving, they just served the planets.
Mebe u shud look at ur actions as to why G-D isnt answering ur prayers; if u dont treat ur fellow humans with respect, they G-D wont treat u with respect (im not judging, jsut guessing and giving reasons-no disrespect meant)If G-D didnt care about u, why are u still alive? Why did he create u? Cud ur life be worse? mebe he is lisntening but his answer is no, i once read somewhere that if u find ur prayers arnt answered then u shud examine ur actions. remember he knows wut is best for u, mebe he knew that if such-and-such happened, it cud make things bad in ur life and screw it up.
first of all- im a pretty respectful person--- lol. blink, there are things worse than death... which is why suicide is often done- life is just too hard and so someone feels the need to die bc nothing else will fix his problems. never say life could be worse- bc then it always gets worse! (its happened!) God might know whats best.... but does He really always DO whats best? I mean what do u have to say for a kid thats abused or whtvr and lives an awful life and then just dies? did He really do what was best for the kid? maybe but I dont think so- havent u ever thought "how can God let this happen?"

[Blink]

of course iv thought "y does G-D let these terrible things happen to innocent".
that is one of teh biggest questions of time, books have been writen on this concept, i personally havnt read ne of them but im sure sum of them have sum answers.

[booklet0519]

I am also a girl, but i don't want to base the way i act on my gender! god is god, and being a girl/boy shouldn't maek a difference, b/c once it does then were not all equal, and i stop wqnatign to be jewish,b/c of inequality... i am a big beliverer in eguality, adn a debater regarding seperate but equeal?

i also haev troublt thanking god for health, when i am not. i dont mean a cold, but i often end up constipated b/c my body is a little out of whack. cna i thank god for making that way? is it part of his plan that i suffer????

[whuknu]

I am also a girl, but i don't want to base the way i act on my gender! god is god, and being a girl/boy shouldn't maek a difference, b/c once it does then were not all equal, and i stop wqnatign to be jewish,b/c of inequality... i am a big beliverer in eguality, adn a debater regarding seperate but equeal?

i also haev troublt thanking god for health, when i am not. i dont mean a cold, but i often end up constipated b/c my body is a little out of whack. cna i thank god for making that way? is it part of his plan that i suffer????
i apologize if i made it seem as if the way i act is based on my gender- i dont generally- but booklet- ur a girl- do u always go to minyan? i know i dont- and thats based on the fact that im a girl and i dont have to! (if i wanted to i would but i dont so yeh)

same here with the thanking God about the health- i got a couple of bad problems and i feel like i should skip the parts about health sometimes!

[J&B]

I am also a girl, but i don't want to base the way i act on my gender! god is god, and being a girl/boy shouldn't maek a difference, b/c once it does then were not all equal, and i stop wqnatign to be jewish,b/c of inequality... i am a big beliverer in eguality, adn a debater regarding seperate but equeal?U r rite , that we are equal in the eyes of G-d (no1 is better than the other). So your point that we should communicate with him in the same ways seems to make sense...
So I think, the reason why girls pray only once a day, and however they please (which I understand to be a big Pro!), is more legal than philosophical. It's the legal statement that women are excempt from all positive precept that are bound by time. And we can only pray each one of the three daily prayers in a certain period of the day...

[booklet0519]

i am not saying i wnt to daven three times, i prefer to talk to him when i am moved, but still...

[darkfairyeyes]

Well, how about talking to him three times a day anyway? When you are moved you could just be a bit more into it than usual. For me, I daven really only once a day. Sometimes I'll daven more. When I need to talk to him any other point in the day I go where I have some privacy and I just close my eyes and think and talk a little so he can hear me. Davening isn't something you read out of a book. It's something that is in your soul deep inside of you just dying to come out. I mean, davening takes a lot of energy because it's so long and all that. Anything you do comes from your heart and I think god accepts that no matter what. If you're moved or not.

[booklet0519]

i agree it should coem from the heart, but i think abotu god a lot, like thanks for the bread adn for sunlight adn for stuff, and then i cant relate to all the words in the siddur

[darkfairyeyes]

No rule that says you need to use the siddor. As long as what you say is from your heart then it doesn't matter what you say.

[Blink]

yes there is,says in the shulchan aruch that you have to daven and then specifies what you have to say in davening. (although a personal prayer which can be said at any time of the day, wouldnt need a siddur)

[lost33]

if you feel u cant daven from a siddur it is better you daven on your own from your heart then not davening at all, though it is still good to daven form a siddur even if your not yet on a level in which it becomes something personal and meaningful to you. not davening at all is not good, if you can daven in anyway it is better thne not davening at all.

[ElectricMayhem]

I recently heard a kid talking about how he doesn't believe that we should have times for davening. I was thinking about that objection, and it's true, why should we have times for davening - can't God always hear us? And the same thing could be applied to your question - why is it so structured? Why do we need a siddur?

I think the answer is that if there was no structure, people wouldn't do it. Think about it - a lot of the time we complain about getting stupid or strange assignments in school, but let's say a teacher said, "Write a ten-page paper on anything you want." That would pretty much top everything. So there needs to be some sort of structure. We need some idea of what we should say. So the siddur is there to give you a general idea of what to daven. You're definitely allowed to modify it somewhat - for example, if you look in the Artscroll siddur on the bracha of refaeinu, it has a prayer you can add for a specific sick person. Same thing with all the brachos - you can add something you're especially thankful for in modim, you can add a prayer to find a job in barech aleinu, you can add just about any miscellaneous prayer in shema koleinu (though you might want to leave baseball out of it), etc.

The other thing that structure does is that it allows people to pray together. If everyone just had their own thing to daven, one person would daven for peace, and some other person would ask that people wouldn't be sick, and a third person might be asking for poor people to have food - it would be nice, but prayer as a group is so much more powerful. That's the idea of Tefillah Betzibur, of davening with other people. And perhaps the greatest thing about structured davening is that if you have unstructured davening, people can daven together when together but will say different things when separated, but if you have structured davening, then EVERY JEW IN THE WORLD is saying the same prayers. We're all davening for the same things. It's a worldwide event, three times a day.

That's the power of prayer.

[rainydays2]

I agree that there is a tremendous power in everyone saying the same thing, at the same time, but wut about all of the people in the world hu dont daven? shouldnt we try to get them involved too? if the way that they relate is by making their own teffilot, tahts ok. i'm sure u no that story about a guy hu is in a shul on yom kippur and cant read hebrew but can play the flute rly well. well he sees everyone having so much kavana and wants to be a part of that too. so he starts to play his flute instead of saying the words bc he cant read them. the ppl start to yell at him and the rabbi tells them to stop bc taht his way of praying, and its better then theirs bc htey probly have less kavana (he had to go thru the embarrassment of playing his flute in shul in order to communicate w/hashem on yom kippur, but still did it). so neway, my pt is that if someone can only daven meaningfully to hashem by saying the english, or making their own teffilot, by all means, go ahead.

[ElectricMayhem]

Certainly if someone can't get anything out of the Hebrew, then by all means, daven in English! In fact, I have a rebbe who recommended having a few times davening in English even if you DO know the Hebrew, just to improve your Kavanah. However, we also have to keep in mind the Mishnah in Sukkah about how if someone can't say Hallel because he doesn't know Hebrew and it's a case where it's his own fault that he doesn't know, "Tehi Lo Me'eirah!" - "It should be a curse for him!" While that's clearly not totally analogous to this case, it's still important to recognize that the original Hebrew is the best and most meaningful Tefilah we know of, since it has so much symbolic significance to levels we can only imagine, and therefore the ultimate goal should be to daven the way we have been davening for 1,500-plus years (I don't remember exactly) with a lot of Kavanah. Tefilot we make up on our own have their own uses, too, but you're not going to be able to put as much meaning into them as you will into the standard davening after reading commentaries on it, i.e. World of Prayer by R' Munk or R' Schwab on Prayer.

[ElectricMayhem]

So I was thinking recently, and it occurred to me, why do we have to daven so often? I know that sounds like a pretty obvious question, but it never really occurred to me that it really is a lot. Why not once a week or something like that?

So then I thought of a mashal, I don't know how good it is, but might as well try. So there's this whole big issue with interstellar travel that the distances are so great that it would take hundreds of years to get there. But let's say NASA was able to put together some giant ship with a huge food supply and everything the astronauts need for the trip. So now they're on their way. Obviously, such a long trip would require several generations, so let's fast-forward 100 years. Somehow, the ship is still going. But it's not as smooth as before. People are starting to question the validity of the mission. The new generation is not convinced that there is really such a thing as Earth. They've never seen it. For all they know, Earth could be a myth that was invented by their parents, and all that exists is the spaceship and the universe. So what about spaceship-earth communication? At that kind of distance, any message would take months to reach Earth. They're updating NASA twice a year. The little communication that the ship receives is not enough; it could have been pre-recorded and played when the old generation wants. So there's absolutely no proof that there is an Earth, that there is a mission. Let's fast-forward another hundred years. The ship is gone. The third generation totally blew off any idea of a mission existing. All they knew was their pathetic existence, and in desperation, they gave up and opened the airlocks. Suicide.
Let's change the scenario a bit. All communication goes instantly from any point in the universe to another; lightspeed is no issue. NASA can monitor the ship's readings and communicate instantly with the people on board. Is there any possibility that the people would question that they were on a mission?

It's kind of an extreme case, but it shows how a constant connection is vital to keeping hope and making sure we don't forget our purpose. We have the ability to talk to Hashem any time we want. Not just on Sunday, or whatever else is used in other religions. By constantly being in contact with Mission Control, we are able to keep up our motivation and remember who we are and what we're put here to do.

Comments?

[rainydays2]

i liked the mashal.

[CptCatz]

that doesnt work because in the second case without the lightspeed issue, earth would be sending messages back to the spaceship. wheres god's responces?

[rainydays2]

G-d responds every day in ways you wouldn't imagine. The very fact that i'm breathing right now is a response. I pray for him to keep me alive, and boom! i'm still living. Think of all the good things we take for granted in this world. have you ever thought about the idea of grass? if you think about it, its so strange that the ground has hair, or sprouts or stuff, just popping up all over it! and no matter what we do to it, (well usually :) ) it just keeps coming back! its like a blanket for the ground. there are things taht G-d does that we dont know about that happen in places around the world, and your prayer for something might just help someone in China. the proof that G-d answers us is not obvious, but once you look for it, it's everywhere and amazing.

[firegirl05]

i hate davening...the only reason i do it (and i usually 4get) is b/c what if im wrong and a lightning bolt is gonna come down and kill me...ur basically just parroting off words 2 god whos prob not caring cuz he sure aint answering, and if u want, maybe close ur eyes and rock backa nd forth and then u look reallllly holy and everyone says wow what an amazing person...i mean seriously, if i have a problem and i need god 2 answer it, i just ask him. i say god, i have issues, and then i say what i need or what i want or whats wrong...and i bet He listens more 2 that then 2 all the people rocking back and forth with their eyes closed...He knows how awesome He is, He knows we love him and all that, why does He need to hear it every flippin day??

[whuknu]

did u read the whole thread? My heart has been poured out into this thread. Davening is not something everyone gets- but that does NOT mean that someone who closes their eyes and rock back and forth is putting on a show. That is just how some ppl daven! We all have our own styles of davening. when i read from the siddur i read every word intently, eyes wide open, standing pretty still maybe a bit of movent, but i also like to daven alone, i hate when other ppl are around me. Some ppl dont care. Point is, we all do it diferently.
I sort of feel the same way that you are just reading other peoples words, and it bothers me too. And I have been searching for an answer as to why we have to read someone elses words. I have heard many difernt ideas, most of which i didnt like that much. Some were ok.
As it has been said many a time on this web site- prayer is NOT FOR GOD- IT IS FOR YOU. God does not NEED our prayer. He does not need anything from us. We need to pray, stay connected to God. You want to just talk to Him when you need something from him? What is he like an ATM machine? When we need money (or whatever we need) we go to Him? Any other time we just dont care? God listens to everyone. Why do u think God hears u more than someone else?

[wheresthesmile]

Before every Shmoneh Esrei we say "Hashem sfatai tiftach ofi yagid tehilatecha" - "Hashem, open my lips that my mouth may declare your praise"

we say it because we are not worthy of speaking to Hashem. we are so small and so insignificant compared to Hashem's ultimate greatness, but He still wants to hear what we have to say because He still loves us. so we say Hashem sfatai tiftach to as his permission that we should be able to speak to him just for now, despite our unworthiness.

i also used to be very confused about all that -- how could we possible be worthy of talking to Hashem just out of the blue almost any time of day? then when i heard this it made my tefilah a lot easier and a lot more meaningful.

[SomeDirection]

A question I always had is, how does davening change anything at all? I mean, G-d will do what He wants anyway... I'd really appreciate some thoughts on that....
You know, that question about god changing his mind in how he acts with us after we pray, is valid and i even had it once explained to me by a friend of mine.The following is a breif explanation:

When Person A is destined for specific things on their plate, god has made up his mind about the Person A. Now if Person A continues acting in his routine behavior, he will deserve the specific things that are destined for him. However, and here's the catch; if Person A recognizes that the things that happen to him are coming from a source directly from god and only god can change his destiny, and therefor decides to forward his thoughts, complaints, prayers, to God, he is actualy changing himself to a diff kind of person, and to an enitrely diff person from what he was before this recognition and this prayer. Now Person A is no longer the old person he used to be. He now takes on a new form and dimension of Person B. The old, Person A, still deserves his destiny, but the new Person B DOES NOT deserve the things that a diff person, named Person A deserves. At this point, it seems to us, as if God changed his mind, but in essence it is the person himself who has changed.

THis might be have been written in a confusing manner, but i tried to simplify it as much as possible.

Please ask for clarifications, if you would like some.
:) Thanks for reading!:)

[ngrub]

I think G-d does listen to us. So maybe you aren't so smart, but there are people out there who aren't as smart as you are. G-d cannot fulfill your every request and whim. He cannot change soemthing that wouldn't naturally happen. If you look around you at other people and the situations they are in, you can realize just how much G-d does help you out and look out for your well being.
As well, davening is for us. when we daven, yes G-d hears, but it is to improve our connection to Him.

[whuknu]

G-d cannot fulfill your every request and whim. He cannot change soemthing that wouldn't naturally happen.
So God CANNOT do somehing? How can that be? kinda like that rock- can God make a rock He cannot lift? I am a big believer in that God can do everything and anything He wants to do, even if its unnatural. for example, the splitting of the red sea. how natural is it for a body of water to split in two, stand like 2 walls and let the jewish people walk through?

[SomeDirection]

It's great that you do believe that God is capable of doing the unnatural. That is a true and fundamental belief of ours. However God would rather do things in a simple way so that things are hidden from the eye. He would rather that we learn of him through our introspection into every day occurences. However, remember, He is capable of doing anything and everything if He chooses to do so. He holds the abilities to do everything "baal hayicholes". You can pray and do all in your abilities to make your wish, desirable to God and He can decided to follow through on that if He so chooses to do so. Keep on praying and believing!!

[ElectricMayhem]

Wow, it's been WAY too long since the last post on this VERY important topic.

This is about the issue of guys having to daven 3 times a day and girls only needing to daven once. So guess what? I have a new mashal!

In a marriage, the most common challenge for couples is COMMUNICATION. Why? Because what tends to happen is that the woman will talk her brains out and the man doesn't listen, while the man only says one-word answers to everything and the wife either overanalyzes or gets frustrated. In short, girls talk, and guys don't. The same thing is true with friendships - girls tend to meet and become best friends instantly (or enemies), while guys will often never mention to friends that they are, say, going away for three months or hospitalized for appendicitis. I know it's a little exaggerated, but the point is that girls communicate, and guys don't, and within what communication there is, girls tell a lot more than guys do. (Sorry if I'm offending any males who are big talkers or girls who only grunt or say "yes" or "no.")

If that's the case, it should be pretty clear why there's a set text for guys - to make sure we start talking and don't stop for awhile. Once we're forced to talk, we will pour our hearts out - at least if we're paying attention. A girl, who will always have something to say and just needs a prompt to "get it out there," is only required to talk once, and we can safely assume that whatever's on her mind will come out.

I know I'm generalizing a lot, but hey - that's all of Halacha, isn't it? As I said in a recent post, "Lo Pligei" (that's for you, booklet).

[booklet0519]

lol-- its nice to be noticed

i never thought of tfilla that way- although it is DEFINETLY true that i talk a lot- actually, mroe than a lot....

i guess for me though, the real issue isnt that i am only required to daven once, b/c i would happily daven 2- maybe 3- times a day, if i felt meore convinced about the truth of the words... i value truth a lot, adn i find that saying words that i defiently dont believ in , or that i have to reinterpret 180 degress the other way, don't really excite me about prayer....

if i felt more sure, though- i would definetly daven...

electricmayhem- you might be right.. i go to a girls only chool, adn there are 2 basic types of ppl: those who daven passionetly, adn those who sit and look bored (obviously there are exceptions)-- i know a lot of those who sit and look bored do so bc they arent connecting with the tfillot...

[ElectricMayhem]

i guess for me though, the real issue isnt that i am only required to daven once, b/c i would happily daven 2- maybe 3- times a day, if i felt meore convinced about the truth of the words... i value truth a lot, adn i find that saying words that i defiently dont believ in , or that i have to reinterpret 180 degress the other way, don't really excite me about prayer....

if i felt more sure, though- i would definetly daven...
What parts of davening do you definitely not believe in? And is it that you are ideologically opposed to some things, or you just can't get excited over certain things, or what? (From what you said next, I would guess the first.) And could you elaborate on which parts or ideas you have problems with?

[booklet0519]

well- nothoing is definete... adn there are times when i can daven with a decisive idea in my mind to just ignore the wrods adn i am able to go the whoel davening, probobly the way people woudl like to, but to do that feels like cheating for me

second0 when i describe the parts i am uncertain about, they basically fundamental parts of judaism( i am not about to convert to other religions- i see their flaws evry cleary, i just haevn't managed to find the right wording for me in these issus for me one way or the other...)

it basically comes to two things: can god interefree in the world, and what will life be life after the coming of mashiach, assumung he will ever come?

any ideas woudl really help- and i appriaciate your willingness to help me tackel my issues

thanks so much

[ElectricMayhem]

Wow, it's been way too long for a response. Sorry about that - it's been kinda hectic lately. Anyway...

About the issue of God interfering with the world - first of all, there's no question that He has the ability. One needs only to look at the miracles in Mitzrayim to see that. So I'm assuming that what you're asking is, does He actually interfere with our lives normally or does He basically let whatever happens happen and evens it out later? First of all, if you believe that there is a grand plan for the world, then it's certainly true that Hashem directs the overall course of world events. But what about individuals? And there really is no easy response to that question. I could go into complex ideas about the Butterfly Effect, or how there are certain phenomena that are by their nature random and unpredictable (like the weather - it's impossible to predict with any accuracy more than ten days ahead) that would be very easy for Hashem to control, or the stories of individuals in Tanach who had their prayers answered (the Avot and Imahot and Chana for children). But I'm not really so good with complex hashkafa/machshava ideas, and I would recommend that if no one else can offer anything good, and even if people actually do, you create a new post on Reb Ely's forum, because he'd definitely be able to give you some good stuff on both of your questions.
With the Mashiach issue, again I can only give you some basic details, since I have never really delved into the topic. (There's a big question as to whether one should, as whichever way you understand it, we still want Mashiach to come, and there are other, more practical matters to learn.) There are a huge amount of opinions on life after Bias Hamashiach, but they all have one thing in common: at that point, everyone will recognize Hashem as the true God and observe the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach. The way Mashiach will come, the sequence of events, the focus on this world or the next, what will happen to those alive during Bias Hamashiach, etc. are all up for debate, but that one point is pretty much agreed upon by all. The idea is basically that the world will become a utopian society with everyone following a basic moral code.

I hope this mishmash helped somewhat. Again, these are great issues, and it would definitely be a good idea to bring them up on Reb Ely's forum.

[?whoKnows?]

i once read somewhere that during davening we see our situations in a different way. it gives us a chance to really think about everything and we can see it from Hashem's point of view more- this shows us that our issues are important bc He wants us to tell Him stuff- just that every little thing isnt the end of the world and we gain some perspective.
also, at least i see davening as a way just to let Hashem know that i know that He's there with me wherever i am and that He's the one helping me through everything
i hope that helped some

[booklet0519]

i just ahev so much troubel with the idea that an incorpereal being could interact with us measly mortals.... does anyone else struggle with this???