Spirituatliy and Religion

[shufleye]

post yer suggestions on spirituality and religion here!

[other]

isn't that what the religon form is for

[whuknu]

maybe this is for religion and spirituality together?

[other]

i would argue their one and the same, and i'd prob say from an organization perspective it'd be easier to add "and spirituality" to the title of the other forum, but wtvr this site isn't for arguing over how it should be run

[whuknu]

does it really matter? i mean rabbi shu just wants us to talk about it.

[shufleye]

guys, this is diff b/c it is not for just any general discussion -- its specifically for yer ideas of solutions that u feel the community can apply, rather than just leaving them to their imagination.

basically, i'm letting u guys know that these r the questions on the community's mind now that all the issues have hit the public eye. they're gonna try to respond and do stuff for u now-- and rather than hoping that the adult community will effectively dig and sort through the more than 4,600 posts here, i know it would be a big advantage to the teen community to give the adult community some persepctive.... :cool:

[whuknu]

what do they want to know?

[other]

Basicly you're trying to play up the big coverage in the meida that you have just gotten.

Maybe this is something you don't understand (and i dont mean this in a mean way), but we dont always want to change things, somtimes we just wana express our feeling to one another and an anoymous forum is great for that. Sure, sometimes we do want to make a difference, but not always

[luckst4rs]

but really in all honesty- what can they do?
if yeshivas and communities start to be lax with religion (which is what we want) then it'll defeat the purpose. kids will always be stifled by the authority and i don't think there is anything that can be done to make us happier. i think kids will continue to either just go with it or rebel against it. i mean its great that we can make things more open and underdstanding but honestly what can you do without throwing it away?

[whuknu]

maybe we can tell them how they can teach it better, so maybe we will be more open to it?

[whuknu]

other- the whole point of the lockers is to tell the modern orthodox workd that the yeshivas do have problems! its not just a place for us to vent- although its that too- but i think rabbi shu's plan was for us to change things.

[raistlin]

"Maybe this is something you don't understand (and i dont mean this in a mean way), but we dont always want to change things, somtimes we just wana express our feeling to one another and an anoymous forum is great for that. Sure, sometimes we do want to make a difference, but not always"
-other

And there's the kicker. Sure, a lot of teens are unhappy. A lot of us have questions, doubts, concerns, problems, etc. But somehow in this mess most of us have found a way to deal. Some people do it by embracing judaism (the frum crowd). some ppl do it by throwing judaism away. some become goth, some become obsessed with excercise and their body. It doesn't make the problems go away, it just give us something else to think of, something to take away the sting. Which is really all a lot of us can hope for. sure i've had some grandiose ideas for solutions. Look in rabbi P's forum and other places. I've been around thelockers since almost day one. but do i really want my problems fixed? my questions answered? I don't know...

Look at it htis way. suppose i have no more problems, which is impossible but just suppose. I'm the perfect kid that an orhtodox community and school wants. Now what? what do i think about? what do i talk about? what do I complain about? Nobody complains because it helps anything. It's just fun. It's a release, a way to vent. It relieves the pressure in side. And having questions and problmes gives you something to talk about. life would be boring without these issues. Now i know that there are some ppl here with real, dangerous issues that are serious and those should be addressed. but aside from issues like depression and suicideal thoughts, I don't see an advantage for a teen to help the community help him/her. i mean, if it works, then alll of a sudden i'll have to grow up. i'll have no excuses to shirk responsibility, no way to hang on to teenager-hood and all the bitter-sweetness that comes with it, no way to justify smoking, drinking, drugging, sexing, etc., none of which are the dangerous pyschological issues that some ppl on these boards may have and hwile they may be dangerous in their own right they're fun. Now remember, as my general policy, i'm not saying anything about me. I'm not saying i do these things, i have never described myself on these boards. I'm only pointing out the way people my age see this "opportunity." The thought process goes like this: these things are fun, no matter who u are, so why would i want to help someone stop me from enjoying these things?

A lot of really good questions have been asked on these boards, and I'll bet they were sincere and their askers really wanted answers. But they knew the answers wouldn't come. somewhere they just knew it. because if the answers would come, would ppl really want to hear them? and even if they did, even if all the problems in the system were fixed, would it affect us? at our age? would we, can we, really change? i wonder...

[whuknu]

raistlin- i know that i want my questions answered. for me, when it comes to issues-i guess im kinda like a little kid- i want to know all the answers. i dont want to just ask, i dont want to just vent. but this is my personal opinion- u and other obviosly feel diferently- and i respect that. for me, i want a change. when one day God willing i have kids, i want to be able to answer these questions. my parents havent been able to give answers that satisfy. they answer-but its not clear cut. my teachers are the same way. but i feel that if we want the answers, we deserve them. i dont like to complain, i dont like to be sad or upset, i dont like having issues- be them issues with God, parents, friends, etc. sure no one lives in a perfect world and no one really wants to- but like i sed- im kinda like a kid when it comes to this- i want to know why the sky is blue, and why the world is round (dont answer those questions i was just using them as an example or soemthing.)

[luckst4rs]

raistlin-
right on..

I AM A COMPLAINER
kids like complaing. it's a way of expressing our teen angst.
everyone is always questioning and searching but it's just a way of excersicing our minds. i don't think it's because everyone necessarily NEEDS a clear cut answer. a lot of growing up is questioning and searching. deciding what to make of what we are given and using our thoughts on it to find a place for ourselves in our communities and in the rest of the world.

i don't think there can be anything said or done by the authority to help anything.
with religious issues, learning can be done and discussion- great
but as for the sex and drugs and such- the kids who do that might stop based on getting in trouble or whatnot but i think it's part of the teenage rebelling. yes it doesn't make it right but i don't think anyone is gonna really stop or prevent them. if we are just heavily watched we will be more careful. that's all

[shufleye]

Basicly you're trying to play up the big coverage in the meida that you have just gotten.

Maybe this is something you don't understand (and i dont mean this in a mean way), but we dont always want to change things, somtimes we just wana express our feeling to one another and an anoymous forum is great for that. Sure, sometimes we do want to make a difference, but not alwaysno, other, i'm not trying to play up to the media coverage -- and honestly, it's not the coverage i've gotten -- its the coverage u guys have gotten...
(it wasn't my party -- and these aren't my convos here... and the only reason i'm talking to the press is to do my best to make sure that the community understands the teen community's reality enough so that they don't do destructive things and hurt u guys in the way they respond.

thats just my promise to u guys that i'm keeping.)

i can't say it any better than i said it here:

i'm letting u guys know that these r the questions on the community's mind now that all the issues have hit the public eye. they're gonna try to respond and do stuff for u now-- and rather than hoping that the adult community will effectively dig and sort through the more than 4,600 posts here, i know it would be a big advantage to the teen community to give the adult community some persepctive.... http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/cool.gifthat party brought the lifestyle of modern orthodox teens into the public eye like nothing before -- its been in the New York Times twice, and even on the nightly news!!

the community is gonna react guys! ask yourselves: do u want them to react badly, or as constructively as possible? your way, or their way???


TheLockers.net has always openly said that it has two missions: to give u guys a place to safely talk and help each other, and also to give u guys the power to wake up the community to your reality and force them to respond to you in more constructive ways.

i just thought u might want to take the lead here... but its up to u. http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif

[whuknu]

how is talking about spirituality and religion going to do nething about this party?

[castophrenia]

The community needs to get itself in order when it comes to priorities. By now everyone knows that certain people that were involved sexually got suspended/expelled whereas the punishments appear much, much more lax for the drugs/alcohol.

Someone asked one of the principals at the school in question what action the school would take for issues of religiosity. Everyone at the school knows that if the administration finds out a girl slept over at a guy's house (or vice versa), the girl & guy will get in trouble. Lectured, suspended, expelled, whatever. Someone else brought that up, and the principal basically responded, "When we come across a situation like that, we have to take action against behavior that is destructive."

Maybe they need to work on reclassifying 'destructive behavior'. Giving someone oral sex is a hell of a lot less destructive than smoking pot, which isn't even that bad.

And everyone knows that the schools have, uh, difficulties dealing with people that don't believe in what they believe. Either they ignore them in favor for the more frum kids, or they let loose series of recycled, uninspired talks, which is somehow supposed to get us to open up a siddur and instantaneously connect with God. They are doing a poor job of getting anyone to genuinely care about religion and/or God. They should accept that or figure out a better method. Something other than "God hears you. Really. He just doesn't give you what you want all the time because maybe what you want isn't the best thing for you". Uh, great, but that's not the right way to go about telling someone that they can connect with God while praying.

[whuknu]

castophrenia- i must say that i feel that the administration does not ignore these kids- but rather they ignore the frum kids and concentrate more on the ones u speak of! i can tell u as a frum student there that i feel ignored by the prinicipal and vp. but either way thats not the point here. I think that yeshivas dont know how to teach faith. im not sure faith and spirituality are really things u can teach- but then how are the israel schools so succesful in doing so? but either way they should learn bc they keep loosing moer aand more students.

[castophrenia]

I've always felt patronized by the administration for not being as faithful as they are. Like I have to be religious enough for them to care as much. And their attention to those who are remotely unreligious/Godless is just the same thing over and over again. Nothing worthwhile.

It's pathetic that the people that want to get anywhere in the religion have to go to Israel for a year after high school. There is something very obviously lacking in high school yeshiva education if they can't handle it here. Even if we are in America.

[whuknu]

well then i guess both sides feel the same way- no one gets attention! no one wins.
but i agree about the second part -it is stupid that thats the case- unfortunately alot fo the time it is.

[castophrenia]

huh. and the administration claims they give so much attention to the students.

[other]

huh. and the administration claims they give so much attention to the students.

and we claim they dont.

[thewisediviner]

do you really want to be lax with religion, luck, or do you want an approach to it that you can better identify with and feel more comfortable practicing the whole thing, than just having to deal with the boring adults?

[oz_borgz]

you need several factors to create a love of torah and judaism in teenagers, a strong religious home, severly enthusiastic and learned teachers and then religious friends but most importantly have a place where the questions regarding g-d and co can be answered or atleast be attemped to be answered, good luck organising all that but if u can get it done the future kids might not have the same problems as this generation

[taon]

i have an idea thats worked for thousands of people including many like the poeple here...but everyone would be too baised to listen to me.

[lost33]

why would you say that? if you have an idea say it who cares if people attack you for your position, for all you know what you say may be exactly what someone is looking for.