disagreements in Torah

[whuknu]

You know how EVERYTHING in Judaism is always argued? almost every word of the Torah, every halacha, ever detail in which we should live our lives. no one knows exactly the right answers- no one knows exactly what God meant when He told Moshe at Har sinai. and it bothers me that we dont know these answers. it bothers me when i learn tanach im learning all these things about our forefathers and previous leaders and things dont sound 100% so u go to mifarshim andthey ALL have something diferent to say- so then at the end of class or studying u dont have an answer! i hate not knowing- i dont like being left to think what the answer is. does this bother other ppl

[blah]

that same thing bothers me. like how do i decide who to follow, and how can i be sure that i'm doing the right thing? and i know we're supposed to keep mitzvot d'rabanan, but like, who gave those rabbis the authority to make huge decisions that impact my entire lifestyle?? rituals that we do every week and even every day are commandments from rabbanim- such as kiddush, certain halachot regarding issurim on shabbat, and even davening! so like, if all this isn't the word of G-d, who said I have to listen to it? I'm not saying that I exclude all mitzvot drabanan from my life, but sometimes I just wonder where it all came from and what merit/legitimacy it has.

[kiyara]

me too!! I always bring up the contraditctions in interpretations in torah and my teachers always tell me to choose one that speaks to me, and go with it, and that God wil accept, but if the other stuff we are taught about God and the mandatory-ness of the mitzviot and beliefs are true, well that seems like a pretty iffy system.

[whuknu]

I know! i cant just choose what i want to believe! i mean it just doesnt seem right! especially about the laws.

[whuknu]

why does this religioun have to be so confusing???

[J&B]

we aren't really aware, but many of today's teachers are just ignorants... this is the sad reality :(
you know, our ignorance is not our fault. it is the fault of the former generation that failed to pass it on to us.
Most teachers will try to avoid th question, they won't tell u why do we have so many opinions in everything.
Basicly, there shouldn't be so much controversy as there is. It is wrong. Do not think that Judaism is suposed to be so divided.
The problem is that we lost all of our national institutions after the talmud. Since then, every rabbi just says what he likes. We don't have any legal statements that force us to follow certain direction.
the only solution is to have a jewish supreme court once again. for that we (the jewish nation) should agree on 70 rabbies to be justices.
I don't think we could all agree even on one!!!

[whuknu]

haha- definetly true- but even in the Talmud- all the rabbis have disagreements! no two can agree!

[blah]

in the mishna, there are machlokot, and then a psikat halacha. but like, who decided which rabbi we should listen to? and based on what??
and like kyara said, the whole, go-with-what-u-feel-is-right system seems a little contradictory. isnt that what the conservative and reform movements are based on? we're supposed to blindly follow the torah, and yet at the same time theyre telling us to pick and choose. i'm not sure who "they" are, but i dont think i agree w/ this sytem....

[whuknu]

definetly agree- i hate all these disagreements- but u cant just choose what u want to.

[J&B]

I'd suggest to follow some big shot, consistently. Like the "Rosh", "Rashboh", "Rif", "Rambam", "Rabbi Yosef Karoh", or "Rabbi Mosheh Isserlich".

Again, consistently (yet, not blindly... it's up to you to find the balance )!

[whuknu]

so which one though????? i cant just pick. sometimes i think one is wrong over the other but then other times i think the opposite. but still why are ne of them right? or all of them?

[PrUnE]

You know how EVERYTHING in Judaism is always argued? almost every word of the Torah, every halacha, ever detail in which we should live our lives. no one knows exactly the right answers- no one knows exactly what God meant when He told Moshe at Har sinai. and it bothers me that we dont know these answers. it bothers me when i learn tanach im learning all these things about our forefathers and previous leaders and things dont sound 100% so u go to mifarshim andthey ALL have something diferent to say- so then at the end of class or studying u dont have an answer! i hate not knowing- i dont like being left to think what the answer is. does this bother other pplyou just said the point of faith, good job :-).

[whuknu]

I am not so sure i agree prune- The point of faith is to follow what you believen- I beleiven God- how can I follow Him if i dotn know what he wants???

[J&B]

I am not so sure i agree prune- The point of faith is to follow what you believen- I beleiven God- how can I follow Him if i dotn know what he wants??? Excelent point!!!
Maybe that's why we have some mitzvot about the actual legal system of Judaism. We should interpret G-d's will through the Sanhedrin's decisions. Whatever was not discussed by them is totally up to your common sense. If you believe you are doing the proper thing, if you really believe so, and it doesn't go against anything in the Talmud (that's the last work we have from a Jewish supreme court, the one of R Ashe), I assure you G-d will not get mad at you http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif.
Just as an example. The talmud syas that women should not discover even 5 inches of their body that are normally covered. What is "normally covered"? Off course you'll have a thousand rabbies saying 3 thousand different things. Ultimately, since it is not something that was discussed on the Talmud, you could base your action on your reasoning.

[whuknu]

ok- but what makes the sanhedrin right? and also - i dont know if i feel so comfortable just deciding for myself- i mean how can i?

*(i know this doesnt belong here but since u mentioned it... does thins mean i can show 4.5 inches of my midrif?)

[J&B]

ok- but what makes the sanhedrin right? and also - i dont know if i feel so comfortable just deciding for myself- i mean how can i? The Sanhedrin is our supreme court. What makes the US supreme court's decisions right? I knew you would say that! Yes! the constitution itself plus the fact that the justices are somehow subject to the rules of the democracy game (I know, the president choses them... but who choses the president?)

The Sanhedrin is legitimated by the pasuk in our Torah/constitution "lo tassur mikol asher yomru lecha yamin usmol" (you shall not deviate from what [the sanhedrin] tells you, right or left). And all of the Sanhedrin's justices are approved by the majority of our nation. So, WE are the ones saying that the sanhedrin is right...

and also - i dont know if i feel so comfortable just deciding for myself- i mean how can i? If you don't that's ur problem http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif, but... think about it. G-d gave us a gift called common sense. It allows us to evaluate the reality and to make intelligent decisions. I think that you, prticularly, have been gifted with PLENTY of it. So...
(i know this doesnt belong here but since u mentioned it... does thins mean i can show 4.5 inches of my midrif?) ... Well, use YOUR common sense. Do you think your belly should be covered? (i bet if you lived in afganisthan your answer would be definitely different http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)

[blah]

j&b, wut ur saying actually makes sense, in a way. i'm still a little confused, but the whole system is a lot clearer to me now. thanx.

[J&B]

Wow! Thank you for thanking me! No http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif, seriously. You made me feel useful! The male gender's most glorious achievement is recognition....

[whuknu]

J&B- by American law the US supreme court is right. Its not the same- bc there are so many disagreements in the torah and Talmud- how can they decide what to do?
Thank u for the compliment… but im not just talking about what to do- exactly how much skin to show blah blah- but im talking about like mefarshim about like the parshiot about our forefathers- ramban sez one thing, rashi another, iben ezra another (I tend to like him best, but no one knows exactly who is right).
And ur wrong about that- I dress with my belly button covered so if I lived in afghanistan I would feel the same way. I dress per school dress code outside of school.
But u did help clear up a little about the san hedrin I guess- glad that balh helped boost ur male ego (hehe jk)

[J&B]

so i dont really understand what bothers you so much about having different theories... You will find as well a thousand theories about certain passages written by Shakespeare, a human! Moreover, something written by the Ultimate Perfection Himself!

[J&B]

btw, ibn ezrah is my favorite too!!!

[whuknu]

Shakespere is not my ruler. Shakespere was a writer whose work i enjoy reading (somtimes). God is the ultimate ruler, how can i serve Him if i dont know how?

[J&B]

It's not the "how" you can't understand but the "why"...

[whuknu]

no its how-u brought up the dmv in a diferent thread- so i am bringing it in here- how do i follow the dmv's rules and regulations? bc they make sense- if God's rules dont make sense, and no one can make sense of them bc they all disagree, how can i serve Him if I dont know how. I know how to drive bc i read the drivers manula- which does not have all the diferent commentaries, and i had lessons- yes some ppl have diferent styles of driving but the same laws appply everywhere.

[whuknu]

I know why- bc Hashem hu ha elokim- that i can do- i can deal with that bc i have faith in Hashem. How really is my issue- i dont have problems with believening God.

[J&B]

again, imagine dmv doesn't tell u the reason for certain rule. And the person who made them up died yesterday. you will never be able to understand the "why". but the "how" is right there! Even though you don't understand it (and now I'm back to the mitzvot) their meaning is subject to the interpretation the sanhedrin gives to it!

[whuknu]

dmv's laws r usually pretty much common sense and understandible- maybe u should make a diferent comparison- such as school and tests.

[J&B]

dmv's laws r usually pretty much common sense and understandible- maybe u should make a diferent comparison- such as school and tests. u r defiinitely very tired. 'see' you tomorrow!

[whuknu]

i maybe have been tired but that i meant.

[J&B]

(btw, how was your fast?)
i was kinda surprised by your reaction cuz u wr the 1 that first brought the idea of using dmv as an example... and i dont c how tests and school would resolve anything!
besides, i think that torah's laws are also "common sense and understandable"

[whuknu]

mine was not so bad and urs?
I did? i thought u did. how odd...anyways either way i dont see how some laws are common sense.

[PrUnE]

How can you not see how tieing ur shoes one specific way is not common sense, shame on u.

[WhoAmI]

lol, reading random commentaries and even one person consistantly won't help you with Halacha LeMaaseh-- you just have to find more seforim that deal with stuff we do nowadays

[J&B]

I'm the most observant Jew i have ever known http://www.thelockers.net/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif !
And i tie my shoes as I please.
And i am not going against halacha!!!

[J&B]

mine was not so bad and urs?
I did? i thought u did. how odd...anyways either way i dont see how some laws are common sense. I slept the whole day! I didn't fast!!!

So, which laws don't make sense? What I mean by making sense is in the general... the details are not supposed to make sense.

back to mvd... you would understand the concept of a 'stop sign', right? You could even understand why it's red and has white letters.
I think you agree w/me that it's stupid to ask why isn't it square? or a circle? or a triangle? The obvious answer is that if it were different u could ask the same exact question....

So all mitzvot are supposed to make sense. The sense u find for them doesnt necesarily need to b what G-d meant, as long as it makes sense to u it's fine... We are supposed to do the mitzvot understanding them.

is there any mitzvah, specifically, that you can't find ANY sense for it???

[whuknu]

prune id appreciate it if u didnt mock me- i think i deserve the same respect i show u.
J&B- stop sign- we got to know thats its a stop sign thats why it is diferent fro mthe other signs in shape and color and everything. either way- there are reasons for most of its characteristics- tell me what is the reason for tying ur shoe a certain way when i have more improtant things to deal with in the morning.

[J&B]

tiying ur shoes is not argueable... I completely agree that u could tie them as u like!!! Why don'tyou bring something more essencial to jewisness?

[J&B]

...what i meant with the stop sign is that some thing just need to be someway! and if they were the other way you could ask the same question!
ex.: "why aren't the shapes of the stop sign and the yield sign, each one the other?"

[whuknu]

ok fine but they still dont apply here- im not asking why mitzvot are a certain way am i? if it sounds like that i dont mean for it to come out that way.
about a diferent mitzvah- i had thought of one earlier today but i forgot it! when i remember it i will post it.

[J&B]

My point is that if we agree, for example, that mitzvot wr meant to train our discipline, it would be enough of an answer for mitzvot in general. It could answer even Shaatnez... - you cannot wear everything you just want!!! And then you wouldn't come and ask "ok, but why isn't it cotton and nylon??

[whuknu]

oy oy oy... no i know that i cant wear whatever i want by the laws of tzniut- which to me mostly make sense. i know i cant go around wearing immodest clothes- so why cant i wear a wool/linen skirt if i please? im aready disiplined enough- im not wearing a slutty outfit.

[J&B]

good point... maybe cuz not wearing inmodest clothing is just an indirect, rabinnic, outcome of the general concept of tzniut... this is much more specific (and applies to boys as well). And maybe it has to do more with discipline of not being too materialistic! If you were exposed to wearing shaatnez and you didn't, you are trained to go to macy's and not want everything you see...

[whuknu]

oh no i may still want things- i jsut cant have them... ive seen plenty of nice things that unfortuantely i couldnt buy due to shatnez, but even more so tzniut. that causes much more want of things i cant have. about it being rabbinic- we see in the tanach that married woman would cover their hair- restriction right there- she cant wear her hair how she pleases. i would think that in biblical times they also had restrictions... they probably just didnt have to say them bc woman would do them on their own or something.

[J&B]

i want to revive this thread cuz i heard something very nice this shabbat, about sacrifices. i think it answers the "why" to all mitzvot.
the rabbi said in the name of the Ramba"m that the korbannot are the one mitzvah that has specific times and very defined rules (also, festivities, but they also have sacrifices). Their only purpose is to direct us to worship G-d His way.
And that's the answer to all ununderstanded details of the mitzvot.
It's like that cuz G-d wanted it to be so.

[Blink]

iv noticed this question is usually asked by people who havnt studied enough in their lives.............

[J&B]

thats just not true!

It is asked by persons who are exposed to the open world (which is a good thing). B"H there r answers.

[whuknu]

J&B- i realize that our laws are so we can worship God the way He wants us too, what else would they be for?
Blink- i dk if you were talking to me, but I have studied plenty. in fact, if i havent studied enough, not only do i think i would not be allowed to ask my questions, i would not know enough to ask my questions. so i think its more the other way around.

[Blink]

wen did i make that post?

[Blink]

i remember ,i made it when i wanted to make an argument, i havnt even read the whole topic, so ignore my comment, i was ina weird mood.