Religion

[jak30r]

I've never spoken to someone about this before, and i'm interseted to hear how other people feel. When it comes to religion, i feel that i do it because i'm forced to do it, and not entirely because i want to do it. For example, i would much prefer sleeping in late than have to wake up early to go to shul on a day off from school. But instead i feel that i have to wake up and go to shul, because i have to go, and not because i want to. Or when it comes to learning (jewish subjects) i feel that i am only learning it because i have to and not because i want to. Am i the only one who feels this way, or are there others who feel the same way?

ps. don't think that I'm anti judaism, i'm just against the way we told that we're supposed to feel towards it!

[kiyara]

hey, dont worry- i Feel the same way. like when im learning chumash, or gemara, sometimes i find a discussion or concept interesting. but i just wouldnt do it lishma, because i felt compelled and motivated to, like i love Torah.

I think its a phase, maybe it will pass, maybe not, but dont push yourself too hard in any direction. just let it be.

[jak30r]

I think its a phase, maybe it will pass, maybe not, but dont push yourself too hard in any direction. just let it be.

thanks for the words of encouragement. but what do you mean by "don't push yourself too hard in any direction?"

[Bongo_Dude]

you cant just let it be. If you do you are stagnant, unchanging, and in this world it means you are falling behind. This world has lost the concept of time - everything happens in seconds and the sooner its done, the better. Change is essential for life, and sitting and letting yourself be is only a fraction above going backwards.

To respond to the thread - and this connects majorly to the inspiration thread (unimpressed) - there is a rabbinic saying - acharei hapeulot nimsh'chu ha'levavot (after the deeds the heart is changed). I from personal experiences that over my four years of high school learning has found new meaning, t'fillah and other mitzvot are enjoyable to me, and while I am very very far from perfect, I think everything needs to be done in steps. it is a phase, and it should pass, but just because you're in a phase doesnt mean you shouldnt try to make it better. You can't rely on a miracle (ein somchin al ha'nes) - you need to work on things yourself. Kiyara was right when she said don't push yourself too hard, but on the other hand you need to do something, push in some direction, and keep yourself from getting lost. Hold on to your values, keep them strong, and it will (hopefully) improve

- B.D.

[jak30r]

thanx for the words of encouragement bongodude! however, the more i try to come to love doing mitzvot, and learning and davening, the more i move farther away from it, and the more i come to despise and dislike it. perhaps that overtime i will come to enjoy it and like it, but if i push now, even a little push, that "phase" will never come because i will develope a complete dislike of everything. maybe its best right now to let it be and not try even a little bit, because i'm afraid of what might happen if i do try now.

[Tigger5741]

Hey Jak,
how about focusing on one or two mitzvot that you DO like? i know some people are more inspired by some things than others. For example, I really like helping people, so I do the occasional chesed baby sitting or when someone in the community needs a meal or other things i help out. or try learning a topic/sefer on the side that you like. u don't have to do it every day, but sometimes that helps. Getting involved in some sort of chessed can be very inspiring as well. so find some aspect of Judaism that "speaks" to you and through that you may come to apprecaite othe mitzvot as well.

[kiyara]

yeah, I am much more likely to help someone than do something like learn Torah because I feel that good feeling inside me when I help someone, expecially help someone understand something like in shool, maybe it is even Torah.

and BD, I understand from what you wrote that I didnt mean "let it be" and just forget about it, I meant acknowledge it and the fact that it is a stage, nothing is permanent, and as long as Jak is consiously aware of it, and aware that he definitely has the ability to change, feel differently,and become a better Jew, then he will when he is ready. sometimes if your subconsiously not ready inside you somewhere, then just blindly pushing yourself can in a sense "break" something where you will just fal way back and lose all motivation. I know it sounds abstract, but I'm trying to put my personal feelings into words.

[Bongo_Dude]

i think you shouldnt push, but at least try to maintain what you have. i feel strongly about the static thing in an everchanging world, but b'dieved (if u have to, so to speak) you should at least maintain ur observance. I also agree very much with tigger - focus on something, but I dont think that should come at the expense of the rest of your observance

- B.D.

[jak30r]

don't get me wrong B.D. i truly enjoy being jewish and living an observant life, its just that i feel like i'm being pushed on too many sides, and being pressured by so many feelings that i'm feeling a little too pressured, enough that i feel that if i'm pressured too much i might get turned off. i feel like everyone is shoving this thing and that thing onto me, and in the process is not giving me a chance to "breath" so to speak, and not giving me a chance to grow into it and slowly accept what is being told to me. its almost as if i'm experiencing a spiritual overload, with this teacher saying do this, and that teacher saying learn this, and my parents saying yeah do this thing too. Everything, i feel is being thrown onto me all at once, without giving me time to digest what is being said and what is being asked of me. All of you guys have been a great help in trying give ideas on how to help myself, but somehow i feel that "find some aspect of Judaism that "speaks" to me" is not enough (not that this wasn't a good suggestion Tigger). I'm not so sure that its me that has to change, but rather the guiding figures in my life (parents, teachers, and rebbeim) have to realize that they're not the only ones in the big picture. I truly belive that they all want whats best for me and they all want to give me good advice and lead me in the right direction, but somewhere its becoming too much, and sooner or later i'm going to reject all of it, not because i want to but because i have to for my own physical and mental well being.

ps. thanks for helping me get this off my chest as you can probably tell that this has been bothering me for sometime!

[Tigger5741]

Hey Jak,
it's good that you are getting it off your chest and seeking advice for your issues. The truth is being observant does get static and boring, and sometimes it gets to a point where a revolution is neccassary, that's what Chassidism was (and kidn of is). maybe by doing what we are doing here we will revoltiinze Judaism. I don't mena changing the essence of it, but changing an attitude an the way we approach it. maybe what you really need to do is take soem time away from the whole situation. i don't mena stop being abservant for a while, but how about taking a weekend and give yourself a break, daven at home and think thngs through for yourself. maybe read a book or two tha seem inpiring, but really just give yourself time to clear your head and figure out what's really right for YOU

[kiyara]

yea, see tigger, for some of us just staying at home, thinking and davening at home wornt work...Id sooner slit my wrists. Wheres the motivation to daven even!!! I mean.......I(would)feel angry, resentful, and full o fnegative energy.

[Tigger5741]

hmmm...
I'll have to think about that Kiyara. I guess every person needs to find their own inspiration. Myabe what you need is a Carlebach minyan, or something else that "speaks" to you, a lot of it comes from within yourself, and you need to search your soul for the inspiration. I know that it's hard to do. You could also find somoene you respect that you can learn with. you need to fins what does that for you.

[Bongo_Dude]

You all have very valid points. For Jak, I think that you need to talk to those guiding figures and tell them how you feel. I see how the pressure may turn you off, but you can't lose your spirit to get rid of the pressure. Maybe you need a new environment. If you are in your latter years of high school, college isnt too far away, and maybe a little more independance is what you're looking for and what you need. Also, to respond to Tigger, I dont think that observance is static. The whole point, in my mind, is that your life is fluid and changing, that you are constantly striving to improve what you have. No one is perfect, so there is always somewhere where you can make yourself better. And to Kiyara - the point of davening is to look inside and find what you truly desire. Forget about G-d for a minute - when you pray you are (hopefully) looking in yourself and seeing who you are and what you want. This is how it could halp jak, and maybe you too. As tigger said, its all in how you approach it.

- B.D.

[Thirtygoatsforyourwife]

I most defintly agree with each point said in this forum.

And for you zak, i'd like to add my own example to what Tigger said (how about focusing on one or two mitzvot that you DO like? i know some people are more inspired by some things than others).
Like you, i'm really not so much into judiasm and the more i try, the more i hate it. But on the other hand i truly believe in God, and from this belief i connect to God in my very own way. Like instead of going ot shul sometimes i'll sit and home and play a song on my guitar, and speak to god in my own words. And in this way i maintain a certain connection to religion in a way that i enjoy.

So again i'll reiterate Tiggers' and suggest again, do it in a way you like, trust me its the best.

[Bongo_Dude]

thirty, you're talking about spirituality, which is extremely important in forming a connection to religion. However, there is more to Judaism than just being close to HaShem. You need to be observant as well as spiritual, and while the level of observance is up to you, you can't just sit and say "I'm close to G-d so I don't need to do anything to be Jewish." (No offense intended to anyone). Observance isnt black and white - you do have a say in what and how you do it (as long as its within the guidelines of halacha). And in terms of it being the best, I'm not so sure thats accurate. Again, no offense, it may be the easiest, but i dont think it is the best way to live as a Jew, and if you want to start with one or two mitzvot thats ok, as long as you're building up to more and more as time goes on. G-d willing, you'll have your whole life to grow in religion, so there is no rush, just don't let yourself get lost.

- B.D.

[Thirtygoatsforyourwife]

hey man, fisrt of all i'm just suggesting. second, if you start with these little things you may get to do some more. i believe in this and i think one day i might start observing a lil more seriously according to the 'appropriate' halacha. so jak, do a lil what you feel is right, then go on and see where it takes you, you might come to love religion one day, never know...

[magniv123]

i think that sometimes you can let it be...im not saying be completely inactive, but at some points in life, just going with it is the most natural and best action.
sometimes being too active is debilitating at the end...

[magniv123]

wow i cant agree more
good call tigger
kol hakavod

[magniv123]

id just like to ask you BD why does one "need to be observant" in addition to being spiritual. not saying i agree or disagree...jsut wanted to hear what your answer would be.

thirtygoats: wow i cant say your name without laughing...anyways thats very cool abour your connection with God, it's def something that so many of us are struggling to find. im not one to say that this is the end of the road for you or if you should further this and be observant in watever way bongo dude was referring to. just wante dto give you probs man.

magniv

[magniv123]

wow do you feel that way about davening?

let me share with you guys my thoughts of davening.
i dont consider myself the most observant person as far as halachicly, im not personally at that level at this moment in my life (although i think one day its something i will jsut naturally reach), but tefila has ALWAYS been my favorite point of judaism.

how amazing is that you have a moment to focus yourself to God! imean i belive that God "hears" and "knows" everything we are feeling and thinking and doing (i put these in quotes because these are human terms we give to God). but tefila, in my opinion, is a strenghthener for US! i mean when you consciously focus your energy and words and sounds and mind and body all together at a set time, it makes it so powerful. now i dont think that its more special to God than those sparatic moments of prayer in th emiddle of the day or in a certain sitch, but i think that it is really something htat helps ourselves focus as humans.
every morning at shacharit im reflecting on what i need to bring purpose to my day and what i need to be stronger. and im thanking God for the power to do this and all the physical things as far as material items and ppl in my life, that provide me with happiness and love and etc.
Come mincha im reflecting on my day up until then, what was accomplished and what i messed up or neglected.

heres a little story a rabbi told me that im not so sure how it fits into my post but its really interesting i think.
he said that one day he was walking in the lunch room and this little kid from the second grade or so came up to him and said can you give me five dollars? he didnt know this kid, and answered, "do you know me" not in a condescending way but justout of curiousity why the kid was asking him and not the other million ppl in the cafeteria. so the kid answered "i duno" and then my rabbi did not give the five dollars adn the kid scidadled off.

now this isnt to say that praying once is stupid and that God wont answer you, but its a cute story and i think we can all get something out of it.

magniv!

[Bongo_Dude]

To respond to ur first (or second) post, I think that observance is a factor of spirituality. Believing in G-d, by nature, in my mind, and feeling a connection to him must compel someone to do mitzvot, because the divine nature of the torah and mitzvot come along with HaShem (I think). I can feel all the connection to HaShem I want, but if I dont express that in how I live my life, then I'm not really connected to Him (btw, I hope I dont offend ne1, since this is touchy, and if I do I'm sorry).

To respond to the stuff about t'fillah: I feel that prayer is both a way to connect to G-d and to yourself (agreeing with you). I g/g eat, add more later

- B.D.

[Bongo_Dude]

To continue: When I pray, I feel like I am talking to the Almighty and both requesting things from and praising Him. In order to make those requests, I must look inside myself and find what I desire and make sure it is important enough in my eyes to be requested from G-d. Also, I dont think that prayer has to be restricted to the three principal prayers of the day. If there is a time when I feel a close connection to G-d and there is something I would like to "say" to him, then I will say it. In a way, my prayers to G-d are really reflections on my internal feelings and desires.

Magniv, your story was cute, and it may say that you have to believe fully in G-d and in his divine nature to truly pray to him instead of just going through the motions. Just a thought

- B.D.

[Thirtygoatsforyourwife]

Hey BD, that's most definitely not true all this "Believing in G-d, by nature, and feeling a connection to him must compel someone to do mitzvot," A person can believe in God because he can't put up an argument to the valid statement of an existance of a mighty one, though he may not have anything to do with religion. There are many people who are agnostic, but they still believe in God. There is no ultimate connection between God and doing mitzvot. And if you personally got to this great level where you can clearly state that God and mitzvot are one, then that's great for you. But being a teenager, not really looking into the ocean of religion simply due to lack of interst, i don't really see where obeying torah and mitvot will bring out my connection with God. So being in the level where i am, i'll reiterate my previous statement where i pointed my living of spirituality and God through music.

[Bongo_Dude]

Ok, to rephrase: Belief in G-d as a Jew, in my opinion, means that you believe in the divinity of the Torah and in its authority over your life. Therefore, based on that authority, you must do the mitzvot. A person who believes in G-d for no reason other than he can't prove otherwise is not the kind of person who truly belives, he just can't disprove it. Belief in G-d is truly feeling the presence and power of HaShem and giving up your life to His will. Therefore, you will be compelled to do the mitzvot, as your life is dedicated to the service of G-d and the service of G-d is performed through his commandments. Spirituality and belief in G-d are two separate things, or rather, spirituality is only a part of belief in G-d (the first part made no sense). You must both feel G-d and follow His will in the form of the Torah in order to believe in G-d, because an Almighty needs some acknowledgement of His power. If that helps, good, and if not, I'll rephrase again

- B.D.

[CptCatz]

i'de like to respond to this. i was brought up just like a lot of others with my parents and teachers telling me to ask why. so now as a teenager, im asking why. im not a hardcore athiest but im not quite sure if i believe in god. going to yeshiva my whole life and having all this crap forced upon me is making me ask why and who. i just cant believe all of it. i've never seen god, i've never seen a work of god (yeah you might go with the rabbi answer and say the trees growing and having babies bull crap but thats not god, thats nature). if i told you that the other day i was at the beach and saw the ocean split, would you believe me? of course you wouldnt believe me because it sounds impossible and you didnt see it with your own eyes. why should i believe in any of the supernatural things that happened in the torah. being jewish is all for the afterlife. doing mitzvot and following the torah is all to get into the next world. but what if we dont think that there is an afterlife? i can still live my life with morals like not killing and not stealing but why keep kosher? why keep shobbas? why do any of the other stuff it says to do? see i ask these questions to my teachers and rabbis and they cant come up with answers. they just make up all this bs. im ending this here. i dont know what else to say about it, i just wish i can talk to my teachers and have a good conversation without all this "just believe in god and dont ask why crap".

[Bongo_Dude]

Well you do seem to be an atheist so I'm not sure what anyone on this website can do to help you. I believe that nature is a manifestation of G-d, you don't. I believe that the torah is divine and that by keeping the commandments I am fulfilling the will of G-d, you don't. I believe that the torah is true, you don't. I really don't know how to respond to your post only because I dont think that anything I write will change your mind. I don't have any better answers than your teachers do - it is all in what you personally believe. It is hard to believe if you are committed to not believing, but maybe if you open ur mind a little more and give yourself some time you will believe. If you don't want to believe, though, you never will.

- B.D.

[CptCatz]

but i didnt say i dont want to believe. i am NOT an athiest. athiests dont believe in god, with no exceptions. i dont know what to believe. i try asking questions but no one can answer me. it seems like the only ones that could answer my questions are the ones that dont believe in god. you mentioned all those things that you believe in and i dont. all those things arent true. i dont not believe in any of them. take the torah one for example. the torah can very well be true, i just dont know. there are things that prove that it was true and there are things that prove that it wasnt true. i joined this board because of these things. i was the perfect jew with no problems, why would i be here?

[kiyara]

I feel like i really have somethings to add here.
First of all, BD- I disagree with you. hard as it was to make it through your posts full of "connection to mitzvot" almighty" praise him" stuff, I myself believe in God, as a Jew, and I keep shabbos and do most miotzvot, but I dont really say all the brachas, not so careful about lashon hara, wear pants, that sort of thing. I feel like i honestly do the mitzvot that i do because im kind of afraid not to, and i know nothing else. i diont really have a reaosn not to- i was bropught up that way and i definitely believe in God. I do have lack of motivation to daven and stuff though.

Cptcatz- in all honesty, my heart hurts to hear you speak the way you do because ive had identical feelings and nobody to really tell it to. i feel you pain - and ill try what i can.

the everyday miracles like people being born and growing are definitely miracles. nature is a miracle because our human minds cannot understand it and how when we breath(involuntarily) so many diff things happen in our body - it cant just be random. and there are also certain times that in your life you may have felt the prescence of God. som,ething lucky that ahppeend to you, or you were afraid of something and you asked God(i have done that as almost a last resort)

And it is very hard to beleive all the stuff in the Torah, but I found that learning this year in chumash about midrash halacha and agada, and metaphors, and rambam and stuff helps - because not everything shjould be taken literally, and there actually is room for leeway in how you can interpret certain thingas in the Torah. I find it hard to remember yetziat mitzrayim every day because of course its hard to believe, and youre right - we dont have concrete physical proof. but thats the essence of faith and religion. the beliefe despite the lack of proof. And you have to make a choice. The afterlife is a big issure - I sometimes cant imagine it actually having me suffer, or remember like every sin i did, and owning up to it in front of God which is sadly what teachers and rabbis say - that well have our life flashed before us and has to answer to God and then suffer time in gehenom for it. I believe that is wrong. whatever happens after we die - who knows? only God. maybe nothing! But we will definuitely know whether God is true or what after we die - because either well hgave this whole escapade in heaven with him about where we go next, or we'll just be dead, and then we'll know there isnt a god. But there is. how do i know? well - how are we here? and if you think about it - how are the Jews still here? There are a few too many coincidences in the history of the world for it to al be just random.

another thing - this shabbos i read the bible code II book - some of it was really freaky and kind of farfetched, but some of it was chillingly true and really an ehye opener. i suggest you take a look at it - it may strengthen your knowledge in a God.

i really hope i gave you a little insight, sorry for the incoherence - thats the way my thoughts run.

[Bongo_Dude]

I'll back down - didnt mean to offend anyone. I'll be more careful with what I do and dont say in the future, sorry

[booklet0519]

i think part of the problem with my motivation is that i don't know if god cares... talking to a blank wall is an unproductive waste of time... once i f igure out about god that will help... i agree that you need it to speak to your soul.

[J&B]

I don't know what can I say in a few lines that could prove the existence of G-d...
1) The first step is to believe that there is a Creator that created the world out of nothing. In this decision there arent whatsoever proofs to one side or the other. Both believing in a self-sufficient/self-created/eternal world and believing in a Creator are based only in faith. I repeat: there are not any proofs to either side (btw, this is y, i think, atheism is also a religion). Do remember, that Jewish tradition pushes u to one of those two sides (I would never leave my tradition for some other thing that is equally unprovable :) )
2) We then need to prove that The Creator has an obvious right to tell His creation how to behave.
3) (we are much closer now...) Finally, we need to prove that the torah was in fact given by this Creator.

It is a very long an hard way. Good luck!

[booklet0519]

ther are parts of the torah that only make sense as devine ie shmitta, but that doesn't mean the whole thing is divine..