The Big Year

[Bongo_Dude]

I know I dont often start topics - I'm more into adding my two cents and stuff. I just noticed that no one was really bringing this up so I thought I would. Regardless of what school youre in, there is a certain amount of pressure to go to Israel for a year before college. I have a bunch of options before me, such as learn all day (Gush, M'Vaseret, etc.), learn part day and do college courses after (Machon Lev, etc.), community service (Shalem, etc.), etc. and I know that I'll enjoy any one of them. I just dont know how to choose, and how to figure out which one will be best for me in the long run. If anyone is in a similar situation, or has any input at all, maybe we can put our heads together and figure this all out. Any input would be appreciated - thanx

- B.D.

[kiyara]

well you sound pretty well off - i know lots of people who are torn between going to israel or college next year.

Just approach it with a clear head and think logically- If I'll be happy at everyone, whichone will I be happiest at, and most likely never have a chance to experience something liek that in my future?

[Bongo_Dude]

well I'm also not sure if i want to go to israel at all (and then theres the whole parents issue - they're not too happy with the idea). I like your approach though, but since I have some time before guy school applications are due I can think about it.

- B.D.

[lamamakara?]

this might be helpful...

http://orthodoxcaucus.org/schools/.

[Bongo_Dude]

thanx

- B.D.

[Tigger5741]

I hate to sound trite, but the year in israel is really what you make it to be. I went to israel because I wanted to be a) in israel and b0 away from my parents. I went on my owna nd not on a program and I did not go to seminart, but rather did a year abroad. and basically had a good time. Isreal did not make me any more or less religious than I already was. what it did was, help me solidify the person i was becoming, because i spent the year totally alone. no meal plan, no rules and no bosses. I had to do all my own shopping, al my own cooking and all my own everything, and I think that's what made it a great year. while i wouldn't recommend doing israel the way i did because it is not for everyone, but i think people look at the year in israel as the answer to all their religious issues, and frankly that's ridiculous. the answer needs to come from within the community when kids are at a young age and KEPT UP through their whole lives. so just remember, spending a year in israel is an AMAZING experience, but it will NOT solve all your religious issues.

[kiyara]

Thatsreally interesting Tigger- you must have been independant to begin with. but how did your parents let you do that? They must really trust you.

What did you do?? Like day by day, and where did you stay? Did you get a job? know fluent hebrew?

[Tigger5741]

Well I was born in Israel so Hebrew was not an issue, and I was in school, just not on a specific program, so I did have a dorm. I also worked, but moistly odd jobs. Yes my parents really trust me. They also know that I am an independent person and needed to do this on my own. The truth is, being on your own in Israel is very different than being on your own in the US. because Israeli culture and society are different from American culture and Society. If you have more specific questions, feel free to ask. I'd give my e mail address but i don't know if the rules allow me to do so (Moderators??). so ask me and i'll do my best to answer.

[Bongo_Dude]

Tigger -
your parents gave you a lot more leeway than i think most parents would (especially mine). I can see how your year wouldnt have necessarily solved any religious issues, but i feel that a more structured program probably could. I'm not necessarily looking for problems to be solved either - I just want to strengthen my beliefs before I'm thrust into the harsh world we live in. I just spent a shabbat at my first choice college (cooper U baby) and the difficulty in maintaining observance is unbelievable. I just want to be able to handle it and grow within that kind of environment.

- B.D.

[magniv123]

i remember at my school's college info nite a rabbi spoke about taking a year off from israel, what you should look for as far as a jewish atmosphere at colleges, etc. this rabbi made a simple but very true and intersting point about taking a year (or maybe two) off to be in israel. he said that you will have no other time to just go and learn (along with your other options like community service, work, etc). he said that its such a great oppurtunity and time to kinda recharge your batteries. and like tigger mentioned, it helped to really solidify the type of person youre already becoming.
i think the hardest part in decided whether or not to go at all is that in american culture, most of the population just goes straight to college. but if you look at europe and of course israel, youll see that this notion of taking a year off is very very common. i personally think its a great idea, youre at a young age so you dont have the entire package of responsiblities that a regular adult would have, but at the same time youre now somewhat on your own, and you can get more out of the expericen than someone of a younger age would.
basically, im all for the taking the year off thing. go learn, go help your homeland, go be there -- its simply an amazing thing (in my eyes).


magniv

ps. this is a question to the administrator "lamamakara": i know this is weird but is your name from a song???

[Bongo_Dude]

Well I guess as an update (and a response to magniv) I'm solidifying my Israel plans. Since the college I want to go to (and I'll let u ppl know if I get in) is very very competitive, I dont want to spend a year without thinking about math/science stuff that I'm gonna need to know the next year (chem, clac, physics, etc.) Therefore I think that if I go to a full day learning yeshiva I'm gonna bring stuff along to keep myself working. Also, theres a program at the Jerusalem College of Technology which is four hours learning and then taking college engineering courses. We'll see what happens - I'll decide soon. In any case, I want to go for a year to strengthen my belief and observance before going full thrust into secular society, and to make sure I can keep learning after leaving school. We'll see what happens.

- B.D.

[magniv123]

Bongo -
That's awesome what youve decided. I think that the Jerusalem program will be very demanding but at the same time very very rewarding in the end, if that is what you choose. good luck

magniv!

[sweetgirl12237]

hey bongo? did u get into the college ur waiting for??? gluck!!!

[Bongo_Dude]

not yet - hopefully in the next few weeks. Its that time of year (lol). Thank you

- B.D.

[Bongo_Dude]

Wish me luck everyone - Gush interview tomorrow. I'll let u know how it goes.

- B.D.

[muzic_n_movies]

Hey guys. I have a quick question, and although it would fit under a topic about parent problems I'll just ask it here b/c we're discussing Israel options. Basically there's one place that I really want to go to, and my mom approves of me going there, but my dad disapproves and is making it nearly impossible for me to go there. I don't want to be disrespectful, but it really bothers me. Any advice for what I should do?
~Muzic_n_Movies

[sweetgirl12237]

if ur close to any rabbi then ask them bc ur now getting into dangerous territory of honoring ur father and mother.

other than that speak to ur dad about y he doesn want u to go there... hope the rabbi thing helps.. find one that ur comfortable trusting and have him help u decide wht to do if ur ok doing that

[Bongo_Dude]

ditto - I need to convince my parents to send me - and if i cant do it alone I'll ask a rabbi to help. Good luck

- B.D.

[magniv123]

good luck muzic! im sure youll end up where you really wanna be and things will be good, God willing :-)

and bongo -- any updates?????

[Bongo_Dude]

Just to update -
After prolonged thought and discussion with several teachers and friends, I have decided not to apply to any schools in Israel and will be attending college here in the US next year

[raistlin]

kiyara said - "whichone will I . . . most likely never have a chance to experience something liek that in my future?"

That's a great point. You'll have plenty of college and community service. you can even do community service in israel. you're into the religion thing, so i think the right thing for you to do is give yeshiva an honest try. it may not be for you and that's ok, but give it a try. i think it's what you need to strengthen who you are. but you seem to be self-motivated, so don't go somewhere that'll push you. go somewhere where u can be independent and grow/learn/whatever-u-want-to-call-it at your own pace.

[Bongo_Dude]

Not sure who u were replying to. In any case - I've noticed that some of my more right wing friends, more of the older ones who have gone to israel, have begun to look down on me in a way, presumably both because I'm not going and because I'm going to a secular college. It bothers me a lot. I know a lot of great people who are more observant and religiously advanced than I could ever hope to be and they didnt go. It's such a social status now - reduced in importance by society like many other things. Just a thought

- B.D.

[raistlin]

i was replying to you BD. screw the ppl who are looking down at you. Prolly some really are, and some are concerned that right now they see in you someone who's at least sort of frum, and who has "potential", but since he's not going to israel and is going to a secular college a few years down the road he's gonna lose it all. That makes them sad, and this may be their way of forcing you to go - through guilt or mussar or peer pressure or whatever.

i'm sorry to say but it will happen. i know ppl who were a lot more frum than you who went to israel (and even to YU afterwards) and now do nothing or next to nothing Jewish. I mean, college is supposed to be busier than high school. if it's a struggle now, then imagine how much more so in college where you'll have more to worry about, and you won't be ensconced in an obviously jewish environment. it'll probably eventually become too hard, and you'll start giving up a little here and a little there, thinking you're still basically on track and those little thiings aren't so bad, and then one day u'll realize that you've lost it completely. I wonder if u'll care. i don't mean to be harsh, it's what i have seen and think will happen.

those "great people" you mention probably had some cataclysmically spiritual experience that knocked them into the path they are now following, and the echoes of it continually spur them on. don't count on having one of those.

now the question is how much do u and you parents care about how observant you'll be? my impression is that u care a lot, but maybe your parents not so much. well that's a sucky situation, because i still think the best thing for you is to go to yeshiva, just because of the sense i've gotten for who you are, but you'll have to convince your parents of this. NEWSFLASH: kids cannot convince parents of ANYTHING. No matter what your arguments are, your parents will always say "he's the child, i'm the adult, i understand more of the world and everything than he does, so no matter what comes out of his mouth, no matter how much sense it makes, even if i don't have anything to say with it, if it's different from what i think it must be wrong. simply because and older and more experienced etc."

Maybe R' Shu could talk to them for you, oh, wait, no, then he'd know who u are and so would your 'rents. hmmm. maybe some rabbi in your school should talk to them. it has to come from a grownup. they need to provide the logic and you need to provide the emotion and the desire (and say "I love you" a lot - it gets 'em every time). anyhow, this is how i see it. if u are really comfortable with judaism and you think it's true and you get something out of it blah blah blah then i hope you can keep it even if you don't go to israel. either way, i'm pullin' for you.

[Bongo_Dude]

Well now, I certainly wasn't expecting such a vehement response from you. You sound exactly like those people who are looking down at me, and I don't need anyone, least of all you, telling me that just because I'm not going to Israel and then YU I'm doomed to assimilate and lose my ties to religion. Neither of my parents went, and for your information, they are very concerned about my staying observant. My parents are nothing like what you said, and I deeply resent your whole third paragraph there. And to refute paragraph number two - these people are normal people who had nothing exceptionally extraordinary happen to them. they went to secular college, made sure there were enough Jews so they would have some base to stand on, and flourished there. So too with me - there will be several hundred Jews in a several block radius of my dorm next year, daily minyanim, shiurim, learning, and, based on personal experience and what I've been told, amazing shabbatot. If you don't think that that's enough to maintain strong religious foundations, then you should live as a kollel boy for the rest of your life, because the only way to survive as a Jew in this world is to be completely isolated from secular society (thats the impression I'm getting).

The close-mindedness of the people looking down at me took away a lot of my faith in the Jewish community at large, and based on past interactions with you on this website, I was expecting more from you. It deeply pains me to know that you group all secular college with assimilation and loss of observance, especially when there are thriving Jewish communities in many schools around the country, even in cities without indigneous populations. I have the fullest confidence in myself to push as hard as I can and grow throughout my years in college, and in that respect I'm glad to disagree with you. I only hope that you open your eyes and see the truth - orthodox Jewish observance and secular society can go hand in hand, if you let them and work at it; that's the basic premise of Modern Orthodoxy, controversial as it is. If you want to view your life as being locked into year(s) in Israel ---> YU as the only way to survive as a Jew then I fell badly, because there is an amazing world out there that you will be missing out on.

- B.D.

[lost33]

BD I feel your situation is a sad one. I’m not going to say that you have to go to Israel and if u don’t you will be lost forever but what u should really do is just try it it’ll open your eyes I don’t even mean religiously go to Israel see what its like to live in a truly Jewish state see what its like to finally be home. You have to understand that there are certain things that are more important then getting into an ivy league. That certain things, though they may not be tangible are more important then having a degree from Cooper U. A realization of what it means to be a Jew in today’s world and the importance of Israel in your life will never be complete until you truly understand what its like to go home. We’ve been in exile for 2000 years don’t you think you should at least try going home don’t you think you should at least attempt to find you place in the Jewish world in the Jewish homeland not at some great shabbaton at college.



Now I’m not bashing going to secular college or anything I’m probably going to end up at a secular college also, but you have to realize that Israel should be of the utmost importance in our lives and it should be a prerogative for every Jew to at least attempt to go to Israel for a year or even for a summer to just see what life there is really all about. I know that yeshiva in Israel is not for everyone nor is even programs like Shalem for everyone but I still think that if your not going to go to Israel for the year you should at least plan on doing a year abroad there like tigger. The longer you push it off the less likely it will ever happen. Without at least trying you'll never truly understand the majesty and wonder that the Jewish people and the Jewish homeland are really about.

[raistlin]

Whoa whoa whoa. Well, I'm glad to see you still have your fighting spirit. It's been a while for us to have a go at each other. En guarde!

First of all, you know absolutely nothing about me. No one here does. You have no idea how observant I am or how much of anything Jewish I really believe. I'm surprised you let yourself conclude certain things about me. A kollel guy isolated from secular society? You really think that's me based on my other posts? And do you really think I look down on you?? I could say I expected more from you.

I will say that I care about other people, and I enjoy expressing my opinion on certain things, so I keep coming back to this site because here I can do both things. I don't remember you actually needing help - you were always the one putting out everybody else's fires. We were always locked in pure dialogue over some cool stuff. I admired a lot of what you had to say, and the frum perspective you brought, and the great dedication you seemed to have. Here in this thread you asked a question that wasn't just intellectual but one that you really wanted to settle - you wanted help. I tried to give you the answer I think is best for you, based on a collective assesment of your previous posts. I may very well tell someone else something different.

I stand by most of what I said, but you'll notice I was generalizing. You're right, I don't know your parents or those special people. All I know is what I've experienced, which as of high school is not much beyond the neighborhood I grew up in. I assume that people function according to patterns, though, so I extrapolate from the behavior I see around me to other situations. If we can't do that, we really don't know much of anything. I am the first to admit that there are exceptions to the rules, to those patterns. If you're an exception, great. If you're really stuck on the whole Judaism thing and you enjoy it, and your parents do too, and they listen to you and support you and want you to continue it, great. Like I said, I hope for your sake you can hold onto Judaism. It seems to work for you. Based on almost everyone else I have encountered, it is much less likely that that will happen without going to Israel, but I would love it for you to be a trailblazer - it would give me a whole new pattern to look for (not that I’m being selfish here or anything).

I know very few people who went to secular college and well, lets say stayed as frum as they were when they went in. There was almost invariably a loss of frumness (frumiety?). Regardless of the student life there. A strong Orthodox presence on campus can slow down the "decline" (if you choose to call it that), it can do "kiruv," but I highly doubt it is conducive to religious growth or even maintaining the status quo for those who are already Orthodox. Like you said - you have to work at it. Work is hard - it sucks. How much strength do ppl have? It's limited, and when a person has a bunch of classes and tests and papers all coming to a head, that person has to make a choice as to where to put his effort. I’m glad you have the confidence in yourself to push as hard as you can and grow throughout college. I hope you do because it is something you value. Truth is, after what you wrote, I’m beginning to suspect you can.

[Bongo_Dude]

Ok, to respond to lost:
I've lived in Israel for a short amount of time - I spent a summer alone at a college there and had a great time. and in terms of putting it as a priority - it is; I hope to at some point in my life when it is financially viable make aliyah and live in Israel. At this point, however, I feel my time would be best served going straight to a certain secular college, probably then getting my masters whenever, and in six years or so, I'll take a look at where I stand and work from there. I think I will get a better education here, that I will be able to build myself up better here, and after I build myself as a person I can work on moving that person to Israel. As a Kohen I have perhaps even a stronger connection to Israel than others because my true lifes goal, should the title be correct, is to serve HaShem in the Beit HaMikdash, something I really hope to accomplish. Thats all good, but until its even a remote possibility I must live with assumption that I will not be able to fulfill that and must at least prepare myself to exist in a world without the Mashiach. A little too much Jewish stuff there, but it applies.

Now to raistlin:
I know that I know little about you, and it actually bothers me to know that I am giving of myself, or "pouring out my heart" so to speak to people that in my mind don't actually exist. Thats irrelevant - its a part of this site. In terms of my generalizations, I just took what I saw from ur post, added some of my angry and offended reaction to it, and went on from there. Had I been in a better mood, I probably wouldnt have said a lot of that, but whats done is done so...
I still feel like ur locked in a social idea - spending a year in Israel is integral for all Jewish high schoolers before college to maintain their religious values and observance. Just a question - what happened when there were no yeshivot in Israel?? I'm pretty sure that there were a lot of people who maintained their religious beliefs, b/c otherwise we wouldnt be here. So how can u tell me that just because I'm not going to Israel I'll lose my religious values?? Our parents and grandparents (perhaps) seem to have dealt just fine without it, so I dont think it is necessary. It may make life easier in that respect, but I dont think its worth the risk. One of the last things I want for myself is to flip out, reject my current values, and end up at a jewish college here in the States. It isnt for me - the college i’ve chosen is (I hope, as far as I can tell at least), and now that I have a set future to an extent for the next four years I am going to pursue it. And I dont think I generalized too much before - rereading ur post is almost exactly what I was hearing from all the jewish college advisors at an NCSY shabbaton (including one that was supposed to go to The same university i plan on attending and reneged his acceptance - that only hurts people like me), so putting u in a group with them wasnt so far out. It may be incorrect, but as u said, I know nothing about u, so I have no idea.
Finally, now that we've had our fun picking apart my life decision for next year, I'd like to know yours. I dont know what grade ur in, but if ur a senior (otherwise it isnt as relevant - the real decision is made senior year) I'd like to know if u plan to go to israel (based on what uve said I presume u will), whether or not ur planning to go to a secular college, and why or why not for everything. Ur choice, but I've let u look inside me - i think it would be fair to get a look inside u

- B.D.

[lost33]

bd before you go off to college and achieve that lofty goal of a masters from some ivy league or other top college remebr that ur life and ur commitment to the jewish peopl and the jewish homeland are more important then some piece of paper that says you paid 40,000 to listen to classes for 4 yrs. im NOT saying you dont do this already but just remember where ur real priorities should lie.

[Bongo_Dude]

Going to Israel for the year before college and working to get a degree from a secular college have nothing to do with my priorities. Not going to study in Israel just means that I think my time is better spent going straight to college - it doesnt mean that I'm some apikores who will drop Judaism the second I leave high school. Not to mention I'm going to a tuition free school so I'm not paying 40k, and my secular education is important to me. I can grow religiously while getting a secular education - I dont see why thats so hard for you people to understand. You guys are so judgemental its ridiculous - I made my decision, but it tells you nothing about how much I value my judaism or my people. This is the root of jewish disunity - ur judging me for my decision, even though it doesnt even mean nething. People didnt go before and they were fine, so why is it now that not going means I'm gonna lose my religion and that I dont make my religion top priority. I do, and going to yeshiva for a year has nothing to do with that. In fact, as a modern orthodox Jew I believe in the integration of secular society into my life, and by leaving it for a year I compromise that belief. It still has nothing to do with how close I feel to yahadut and to am yisrael

- B.D.

[lost33]

first of all im not judging u in any way ive never ssaid that if u dont go to israel ull lose ur judaisim forever i dont belive in that at all. i nver said that u have to go to a yeshivah in israel, all i said was that every jew should at least try to go to israel wether it be a yeshivah bar illan or something like shalem. i dont really care were one goes in israel as lonmg as they r there. i feel its more important nowadays with the whole situatiion for us spioled american jews going to an ivy league U to go to israel and see wat its really like. to go to israel and strengthen our connections to our home so that we will be able to make aliyah even if it woldnt be finacially the smartest thing to do bec there are certain things in this world that r more important then living in the suburbs in a big house wiht two cars and the 2.5 kids and maybe a dog. im not judging all i said was that ur priorities should be ur people and ur homes before all else. i never said u didnt have such priorites nor did i say if u didnt ud go to hell and u would assimilate. i just stated my opinion and dont blame my opinion on the disunity in the jewish world im not forcing anything on u im just saying wat i feel. i feel its more important that one goes to isreal, not even to a yeshivah, then going to some top 10 college. i mean i would understand if going to isreal wasnt financially possible but not once have u indicated such, so i wouldnt know if that was the case and if it is then i am sorry for my rant.

[Bongo_Dude]

look - i understand that u think its important to at least go to israel but i think that going to college first makes it more likely that i will make aliyah in the end. I'm just so frustrated at all these people telling me i have to go, i have a duty to go. At this point its not true. I'm developing my strengths and preparing myself to contribute to this world, and G-d willing at some point do it from Israel. I have been to Israel before, lived there for amonth, and I'm going now for three weeks. I have my connection to the land - I have friends and family there, and while mebbe it would be diff if i spent a year there, I dont think its necessary. The last thing i want is to be that person in the suburbs but wtvr, it doesnt matter

- B.D.

[kiyara]

I know, I hate the whole "i went to israel for 2 yrs after high school, came back to stern/YU/barnard and now i live in one of those jappy nyc suburbs with a beatiful(pukey) diverse(homogeneous) and warm, welcoming(snooty as hell) communities, getting comfy here, with no immediate thoughts of israel or anything.

I have to say its interesting that you are not going to israel because from reading ur posts many months ago, i thought you were so on that path, but it just goes to show...

[lost33]

ok so in ur case so ull prob end up making aliyah but thats not always the case, wtvr i think u should go to israel then college not college then israel wtvr it doesnt mattter as long as u end up home.

to kiyray if u look at a majority of american jewish leadership u'd get the immpression that all israel needs is our votes and our money when the exact opposite is true! ya israel does need our money and american support but even more important it needs immigrants who will be able to further israeli society. they need affluent western jews who have the courage to give up their easy life in exile and go home to israel. thats what our jewish leadership should be instilling in us. not that all we have to do is go to a few rallies and give some money evry once and a while. though such actions are comendable they r not nearly enoguh. evry jew must relaize that though they mey not be living in israel right now it is their only home and they should realize that not living in israel and having an easy life in america is not the way things should be.

[raistlin]

In the words of Ace Ventura, "Thought I left,
didn't ya?" Now you giggle like Courtney Cox -
come on, you can do it.

I haven't responded till now because I've been busy.
I hope you aren't offended by the sporting interest
I take in these boards. I suck at all team sports
(I can ski and I can swim tho) so I sorta like this
somewhat competitive, debating atmosphere, your
misconceptions about me and all, BD.

Ok, I can accept that you were in a bad mood.
Truth be told, it sounded like you had a chip on
your shoulder. Two things tho. 1) I don't see
how you can conclude from my posts that I am locked
into the worldview you described. I explicitly stated
that my conclusions are based on my experience
of what tends to happen to people who do not go
to Israel, not an expression of any philosophy or opinion.
It's a lot more scientific - it's a trend I have
noticed, not an expression of membership to any
social mores. 2) I think you are locked in a social
idea - that your current values are the best, or
at least the best for you. I find that surprising.
You seem very eager to challenge everyone else's points
of view, but not your own. What would be so bad if
you "flipped out?" Why are you so stuck on what you
define as Modern Orthodoxy (a definition I'm sure
some people would take issue with)? It's only bad in your current
perspective, which itself is preventing you from trying
any others because for some reason you - a teenager -
are so sure of it. Where does this confidence come
from? Why are you so afraid of a different set of values?
Now, DO NOT GET CONFUSED: I am not here to say that
flipping out is good, or better than what you are now,
or that you should do it, or that you are wrong,
or any of the other ridiculous claims you assumed
I made in my previous posts. I am just asking you
a question. That's all.

Of course in my previous
posts I sounded like an NCSY advisor - I was imitating
them! I was putting words in the mouths of people
you were talking abot. I davka wanted to sound like
them (did you catch that?).
As to your objection to me, about our people who are
observant and who were around before yeshivas in
Israel were open - to say the least, I am not
impressed. (don't get offended Dude, please, i'm
not insulting you here, I'm responding and being
intellectually honest) There's a whole historical
thing we could chat about, but here's a skinned down
version of one facet. First of all realize that I
have been in the same education system you have been
in. Pretty much we both know the same things about
certain issues such as halacha. I also know some
people who have gone to Israel and who have come
back and have spoken to them. Now here's the point:
Those people do a lot of things wrong. There are a lot
of things that are parts of a truly halachik lifestyle that
they are either ignorant of, not sensitive to, or
choose not to do because in their minds they don't
make sense or are unecessary or inconvenient. This is still intellectual,
thought, you see? It's not a moral judgment, it's
statement of facts. If you accept Judaism and Orthodoxy
and the Shulchan Aruch, then according to you a
lot of people are making a lot of mistakes. I'm not
saying that the kids who come back from Israel and
realize that handle it the best way - they don't, and
for all they know there are a lot of things they
themselves could be oblivious to. But the difference
between them, is that the kids who come back from Israel
at least intend to keep growing, and are willing to
change what they do and how they do it should they
find that the halachik ruling is contrary to their current
practice. I can't say the same for adults, who all
too often get set in their ways, get comfortable, get
occupied by other aspects of life (job, spouse, kids,
friends, house, etc.) and don't want to mess with
any of the building blocks of the house of cards they
have built for themselves. How many adults do you
know who are activley growing from a Jewish perspective
(some people don't call that "growing," but anyway)?
How many are weaning themselves off from talking in
shul? or saying shmoneh esrai slower? or trying not
to just sleep through shabbos? or learn the laws of brachot
and change what they say on which foods? I can't
think of too many - they're all happy where they are,
and because of that that's fine with them, so there
is no incentive to change. I may be wrong about your
parents, I am the first to admit that, please
remember this is all based on my limited experiences.
The kids who have gone to Israel may end up the same
way, but right now they are different and they really believe
and are trying to live a true halachik life regardless of
how comfortable it makes them feel or inconvenient it is
to change.

I'm not making any predictions about your destiny,
I'm just saying that your objection isn't great. In
my view, the older people are religious for a different
reason(s) than the younger people. Essentially, (although
it's more complicated than this) older people are religious/
halackik because they like it, it gives them meaning or
whatever, and the younger people do it because they believe
it is true. This explains perfectly their different attitudes.
Where do you fall in, if you don't mind my asking?
But anyway, I've written enough for now. I'm curious
to see how you respong, but please don't see this
post as "vehement," I'm just a guy with some thoughts
who's glad someone like you is willing to read 'em
and hit back. That, I will consent to, is indeed
a process of growth for both parties. (More than that,
at least for now, I won't say about how I view things.)
Oh, and I haven't neglected your request for me
to let you have peak inside my life. It's coming,
it's not gonna be exactly what you want or expect,
but it'll be something. I just can't do it right now.
I gotta work.

[raistlin]

Hey lost,

I just want to know: where does you conviction and love for Israel come from? when you say it's our home, and that we belong there and we should all live there, how do you know that? and what makes you so emphatic about it?

[lost33]

rastlin

u kno wi really dont know were my love for israel comes from. its not really my parents or my school, all i know is then in my heart i know that it is my home and it is the jewish homeland that it is the only place in the world for the jews. i dont know were my feelings for israel came fomr and it wasnt untill recently that i truly recognized them for what they were but i think ive always loved israel and always will i know its our home bec its the jewish homeland historiclally and reliougsly which ever approach u take israel is still the jewish homeland. i know that its is neccessary for jews to go home to israel bec i look at the world today and i look at our history in exile and i recognize that the nonjewish world will never trully accept the jews oh they pay lip service to the ideas of equality and social justice but underneath that facade is still the ugly head of anti smeititsm. its not dead and never will be as long as there are jews in this world they will always find a reaosn to hate us and poersecute us. the jewish world have been living in a dream since the holocuast far too many jews have deluded themselves into beliveing that antismeitism will never again rise up but they are worng antismeitism will never go away. yes for a while europe and much of the world lived in guilt over the atrocities that took place duirng the holocasuet.it took 6 milllion to die before the worlld recognized our plight but the world doenst have a very long attention span the guilt over the holocaust has gone its been replaced with anti-zionism or in reality a much more virulent antisemitism. look at our history and the events of today and u will realize that the only place a jew can live is in israel. even in america anti siemittims can rise up. dont delude urslef into thinking that americ wouldnt never turn against the jews dont make the same mistake the jews of germany made they too thought they were safe in berlin they even called it their new jerusalem it was thier haven they germans were far to enlightiened to allow such atrocities to take place but they were wrong. the world never wanted the jews but we are here and all we want is to be able to go home and even that they try to prevent they hate us and dont want us but they also dont want us. our only home is israel it always was and always will be.

[raistlin]

Hi Bongo_Dude,

You know what I feel like right now? out of practice. it has been so long since i've been on these boards that i'm not sure i know how to do this anymore. it's not that i don't like it here, i do. it's just that i do other things, and there's only so much time in a day. i do owe you an answer to a question u asked me once, though.

"Finally, now that we've had our fun picking apart my life decision for next year, I'd like to know yours. I dont know what grade ur in, but if ur a senior (otherwise it isnt as relevant - the real decision is made senior year) I'd like to know if u plan to go to israel (based on what uve said I presume u will), whether or not ur planning to go to a secular college, and why or why not for everything. Ur choice, but I've let u look inside me - i think it would be fair to get a look inside u"

I can't tell you whether I'm a senior or not, but i'll say my point of view of the issues you brought up. I would like to spend a year in israel, i really would. the reason is i don't think i've given judaism a fair shot. i've mentioned in other posts (like in Rabbi Pruzansky's corner and other places - u might really enjoy talking to him if u haven't already, he seems to be you, mmm, type) that i've started learning some stuff about judaism outside of school, stuff schools don't go near (i still can't figure out why) and i've been impressed. that's not to say that i act or look frum now or not, i'm not saying that. all i'm saying is that on the inside i've started to see judaism in a new light. there's a depth there i'm beginning to recognize that the yeshiva high school's are light years away from. it seems patronizing to me now the way hebrew subjects are taught. so basically i want to try judaism on it's own terms, and i think a yeshiva in israel is just that environment. i know i'm free to leave if i so choose, and by the same token i'm also free to stay if i so choose. i may like it, i may not. i may agree with it, i may not. we'll see. but i'm willing to try it . . . for real.

i do plan on going to secular college. i agree with you that we have to live practically in at least some aspects of our lives. we need jobs, we need to interact with goyim (something i - i don't know about you - didn't do much of in school except chatting with janitors who are cool guys), we need to know about the world just in order to survive. (those interested in a philosophic debate about why we should survive are invited to contact me thru this thread to see what we can come up with). i also feel that the level of academics and education in the secular schools is higher than in the jewish schools, and as someone who fancies himself some sort of intellectual that's important to me.

Just one thing BD, i just can't help myself here. But you said in what I quoted above that based on what i've said in this thread u assumed i'm going to israel. while you conclusion would be right if i was a senior (ie that i would be going to israel if i was) the way you arrived at it is wrong. what i was writing before was what i felt was the right adivice for you. at certain instances i was trying to sound like the kind of person you criticized. it had nothing to do with what i felt was best for me or with what my views on reality are. you can't conclude anything about me based on what i wrote about what's right for you because we're different people. (Hmm, i wonder if there's anybody on this website who has two screennames and has conversations with himself. hehehe, that would be funny. we'd have to get him some friends.)

Best of luck to you BD. OH, and I do have to add one more thing. i have found an exception to the rule. I know of one kid who did not go to israel for a year, went to a college which is a terrible environment for someone who buys into and wants to maintain his orthodoxy, and has not only survived there but thrived. He learns daily, comes to all minyanim they have, helps out with gabbaying, food, etc. It's really amazing. And now i can demonstrate something i learned in gemara class - a kal v'chomer. If he went to a school that is a bad environment for him, and he was probably about as into it as you are when he was a senior, and he is doing fine, then kal v'chomer you, who are going to a college that seems to have a strong orthodox prescence, should do fine. I still hope that for as long as you accept Orthodoxy that you do do fine. If it works for you, run with it babe.