Sex- is it ok?

[xonethousandtearsx]

what do people really think about it? like high schools kids? jewish ones. i know some other people and sex is just like ok yea but its the public school culture but not that its bad - but i never heard any yeshiva kids express there opinions on it.

[kiyara]

I dont know, the actual sex part I disagree with before marriage, because it can induce diseases, and also, its something special. it should be shared with the man/woman you hope to spend the rest of your life with.

[Bongo_Dude]

Besides for the fact that sex is prohibited before marriage, I'd like to agree with kiyara and say that it is something that should only be shared with a person you are willing to spend the rest of your life with and to give everything you can to

- B.D.

[sweetgirl12237]

being in a jewish school sex is always frowned upon but society today is tellign us its ok. if your sitting around thinking about whether or not to have sex think about it this way. u want to be sexually active, fine, but keep one thing that can be special ebtween u and ur spouse.

[Bongo_Dude]

First of all, society today, in my opinion (cptcatz), should not be used as an example of how to live ones life. I think that if your morals and ethics come from how the majority of people in the world think and act then it is incongruous with the core beliefs of Judaism. Also, I'm not sure what else could be kept special between someone and their wife in a physical sense other than sex - it is the highest degree of physicality, and theres almost nothing you don't do to get there. Just my opinion, and therefore at the very least I think sex should be saved for marriage, if not other touch as well

- B.D.

[i got issues]

personally i do not view sex as such a big deal, kids all over the country are doing it, why cant i? no1 will frown upon it as long as they dont know about it so i say "go for it" if u can(only w/ some1 u love)
peace out,
i got issues

[i got issues]

sex in highschool is ok with me as long as ur parents approve
peace out homies,
i got issues

[Bongo_Dude]

maybe ur ok with it as a person but what about as a Jew?? Unless that doesnt impact on your sense of right and wrong (no implications) in which case it wouldnt make a difference. I wouldnt have sex before marriage, but thats just me

- B.D.

[CptCatz]

bongo dude, you dont have to say that every time you voice your opinion. sorry for that, i hope theres no tention or anything between us.

about sex, i've been learning torah for just about 10 years now(or at least going to a yeshiva for 10 years) and not once have i seen it in the torah where it says its not allowed to have premarital sex. can someone confirm that its in there?

[Thirtygoatsforyourwife]

yeah, you tell them, cptcatz. there isn't any mentioning in the Torah that you're not allowed to have pre-marrital sex.
But, although it doesn't say anything in our holy text, it doesn't mean it's totaly ok. A person who feels religious enough to go with the flow of living religiously, good for him/her and that person will remain a virgin until marrige.

And that brings me back to your point, BD, this is about 'going with the flow', and therefore one who doesn't feel observant enough, and doesn't feel the obligation of living completely accirding to halacha, would be able to live the lifestyle of any other religion in our society.

[SuperSaiyan3]

captain cats must be right because all your base are belong to us.....besides you should be able to have sex without having to worry about what society thinks. Heres something for ya.....WHO CARES

[Elvira]

I've thought about this alot. I've made my own decisions, as have most of my friends. without going into where i stand, or where any of them stand - i'll say this.

if you think everything is sh**, then it will be. if you think everything is sacred, then it will be. and if you think some things are sacred, and others are less sacred, then thats how they will be. because things are the way you regard them. my little sister thinks that sparkly things are treasures. and so she treats them like treasures. and then they are treasures for her - to the deepest levels of her emotions and personal experience.

i've just found that the things i decide to treasure, become a treasure. and then my experience with them becomes deeper when i use them. this can be true for a beautiful piece of jewelry - and it can be true for your body.

whatever you give away freely, will lose its meaning. whatever you consider a treasure, and take out less frequently, will have very deep meaning whenever you chose to use it.

my two treasures are kisses and sex. we may do other things, but we have to be dating a long time before you will get a kiss from me. but i can tell you - any guy i've kissed will never forget our kiss. ever. its pretty cool - but when you decide that aspects of yourself are a treasure, other people can feel it too. both those you are with, and those who are jsut around you. they know that you have a sacred dimension to yourself. and it feels great when you know that other people can feel that about you. but you have to create it.

[Bongo_Dude]

Sex is forbidden in the torah before marriage only in the fact that women who have had their period and didnt go to a mikvah are tameh and therefore forbidden from all contact (another support for shomer). Originally, people were having premarital sex because the teenage girls were allowed to go to the mikvah, but then the rabbis decided that they wouldnt allow unmarried women to go to the mikvah and... (deep breath) ...thats why premarital sex is forbidden today. Sex, according to Jewish law, is also the same as getting engaged to that person, so if u guys go and have sex you are halachically engaged and that makes a mess if u dont get married.

- B.D.

[Digital Messiah]

in my opinion experimenting with your body is ok. (im sounding like my parents) but having sex before marragie with somone you dont love is what i would call f*cking. having sex or making love is with somone special and somone you love. B.D. maybe you could explain a little more about why premarrital sex is forbiden? i dont realy understand what you said.

[Bean]

I think society has undergone sex inflation; there's so much sex that it has been devaluated. that's a bad thing in my opinion. I mean when you have sex for the first time don't you want it to be something special and not just a random fling?

halachically, having sex with a girl who has not gone to mikveh is like breaking shabbos. having sex with a girl who has is probably similar to eating treif. i don't know if its really as bad as people make it out to be, but how many girls do you know who go to mikveh?

[Bongo_Dude]

Women who have had their period are impure. You are forbidden to come in contact with, let alone have sex with, an impure woman. If women go to a mikvah they are cleansed, but unmarried women are not allowed to go the mikvah nowadays so you can't really touch any unmarried girl (and after marriage it is forbidden for other reasons). Sex, by itself, is not forbidden, b/c as I said it is a form of engagement (See masechet kiddushin)

- B.D.

[Bean]

not really a form of engagement if you don't want to get married to her any more than giving $100 to a girl is a form of engagement. you need 2 witnesses (don't ask) etc.

[i got issues]

cut the crap. we dont want the halacha wer want advice.
holla back,
i got "u know what"

[Bongo_Dude]

i got issues - its people like u who fragment the Jewish community. I take personal offense to what you said

- B.D.

[Bean]

my advice is don't get a veneral disease and don't get pregnant (or get a girl pregnant) if you keep by these guidelines i guess sex is pretty harmless unless you care about halacha and morality and other old-fashioned concepts.

[IdEAs2Bheard]

things like getting pregenant and catching other sexually transmited dease's is a big deal .. think about it before you hop into bed with some one is it worth that feeling that you cant wait until you know youre ganna do it with some one youll be with your whole life and it wont matter if u get pregnant and ull know your not getting deases or du wanna go for the fun and regret it the rest of youre life bc youre stuck at home with a baby or u have to make a descion on having a baby or myne even facing death at a younger age bc of that one night... in my opionoin those old fashoined concept's have reson behind them

[partychica]

bongo dude, can u get over the fact that the decision to have sex or not is not necessarily a decison that keeps religion in mind
first i know plenty of "yeshiva students" that are not virgins. just becuase they got to yeshiva doesnt mean they arent normal teens. i personally am a virgin because i dont think i found the right person to lose it to, but if i feel i found the right person for that time in my life i just might do it.
and to someone else before, what do you mean by "as long as your parents are ok with it" i mean i wouldnt say to my parents, "um can i ask you a question would you mind if i go have sex with joe shmoe?" um talk about awkward!

[i got issues]

Actually, i think i would. I usually take my parents views into mind strongly. I once asked them if i could have sex with joe schmo and they told me as long as i use protection, i could do it in their bed. Also, i think u are right in relation to bogo dude.

[Bongo_Dude]

Aight if u guys dont want to hear my opinion I won't share it. Hope ur happy

[TheBlueGreenMystery]

LOL @ issues.
but seriously, if ur parents said that, and ur jewish, then thats not good...

[i got issues]

Why do you accuse me or my parents like that. The torah even goes by these principles in ki tezeh, when its talking about prostitutes and war hostages, rashi says that the only reason that the torah allows it because if it didnt, people would go out and do it anyway and get sins for it.

[Tigger5741]

ok, i'm gonna go out on a limb and bare my soul here. i went to yeshiva and was raised in frum home and all that stuff. i was pretty good in high school, i had my issues and a whole lot of questions, and wasn't particularly shomer negiah, but not particularly into doing stuff either. i dated someone for a long time and we were intimate but nevr had sex. after we broke up, i was already in college and sort of on a slippery slope about religion and stuff. i also started getting into the party scens somewhat. i hooked up with people abnd did some other stuff i wasn't so proud of. in my second year here i was "involved" with someone who wasn't jewish and after a lot of talking about/thinking about it we had sex. after we broke up i met someone jewish that i was intereseted in, and i had to tell him i wasn't a virgin, and that was one of the hardest converstations i ever had to have. before i made the decision, i made sure i was protected and that the person iw as with was clean, and i had testing done afterwards. my point is, sex is not a casual decision to make. there are so many risks involved, like STD's and pregnancy that if you make the decision remember a few things: 1: if you decide to have sex, if you nad that person don't stay together, you will have to tell every other person that you date that you are not a virgin. 2: people LIE, ALWAYS be protected! 3: don't EVER make impulsive decisions, you have the right to stop at any point, you never "owe" sex to another person.
on a happy note, i am in a commited (and sexually active, but well protected) realtionship, with someone i love very much. i just wish all stories ended the way mine did. but i did learn some very hard lessons from my experience.

[hushedfire]

ok, well, i think that the first guy who started this forum was to be taken from a personal aspect, and true, torah is connected deeply with a lot of people, but for me, personally, torah has nothing to do with me as a person.im not a virgin(and im a sophomore). i think that its sacred and holy to some people and then again, to some other people(like me), there are other things that are not to be touched than the body.sex for me is a trivial thing.but having a boyfriend or a girlfriend, well, thats diffrent.thats having a strong connection with another human being and then the sex between a couple like that is holy and shouldnt be poinsoned.im not saying dont do it before marrige, i feel that if the time is right and both parties feel secure and confidnet enough to take the risks, then go for it and have fun..
for me, all sex isnt the same.its diffrent with every person and with every time.just like a kiss is diffrent with every person and every time and the place for that matter.its all relative. you just have to find a balance.

[Icegal104]

In my opinion, a guy and a girl could have sex if they love each other and are willing to live together and maybe even get married.
otherwise, wats the point?
the girl ends up having the baby, or having an abortion, so why dont u just avoid the whole idea until ure ready enough for it?
does anyone else have an opinion on this?
Bye

[Icegal104]

does anyone else have thoughts on this subject???
Post any thoughts people!!!!
lol
~I Luv Ice~

[c00kiem0nster111]

just something to think about...
in our school we had a lady come in and talk and it was actually very interesting..she was discussing the importance of being shomer (she was a ball teshuva) and we also discussed sex before marriage. She quoted a gemara which said that on ur wedding nite when u hav sex with ur husband all the ppl u mite have had sex with before are in the bed with you. Now theres something to think about- wouldnt u rather ur first time with ur husband/wife to be something special just between the two of you? now it woudnt really be that holy if u had done it many times before now would it? so altho it mite be someting u consider enjoyable now, wen ur older ull really appreciate it much more if it wasnt just something habitual u always did wen u were younger.

[xonethousandtearsx]

hey im the one whos started this thingy-
i just wanted to know other jewish teens opinions on sex before marriage and if age matter or what they think is important criterea just b/c its not something my friends always talk about seriously or anyone else i know and of course schools dont cover it so yea is it ok before marriage? i jsut wanna no what everyone thinks...

[c00kiem0nster111]

well, halachically no it isnt- ure not even sposed to touch b4 marriage. but i dont believe in that. i mean i dont believe in sex b4 marriage either but i think anything up to that is alrite b4 marriage but sex can lead to pregnancy- y take that risk b4 ur married? i mean protection doesnt always work...so yea i dont believe in sex b4 marriage altho its not really cuz of religious reasons as much as practical reasons

[CptCatz]

no the rabbis just made up that whole mikvah bs rule so they can make a stupid excuse for shomer and premarrital sex. as long as its protected sex and both people want to have it, theres absolutely nothing wrong with it.

[Bongo_Dude]

you hold that theres nothing wrong with it. Most Orthodox rabbis would argue with that, as would many orthodox Jews. You're the one who told me not to make assumptions - now ur making generalizations. Its almost as bad.

[c00kiem0nster111]

its not a bs rule and its not like they jst randomly made it there was obviously a reason for no premarital sex- and anyways u said "as long as its protected sex..." well ure not allowed to have protected sex anyways b/c thats preventing a life from being born which ur not allowed to do (i gues its considered kinda like murdering and goin against the mitzvah "pru u revu") so yea there actually is somethin wrong wit it

[xonethousandtearsx]

ok so some people think its wrong because one can get pregnant, some people think its totally fine and some people think its halachically wrong
just wondering but thanks for letting me know how jewish high schoolers view sex. i just wish everyone was more open about talkign about it especially schools. i've been in a less religious skool before and i hate that i dont get any form of sex ed because schools think that since kids are SUPPOSED to be shomer that they will. i think a lot of kids can benefit from it if schools were willing to admit that not every jewish kid waits till they are married....

[magniv123]

so obviously sex is not okay by halacha. and thats not just sexual intercorse, that includes all the other stuff and "bases" (haha) before it. but being realistic about it, there are MANY halachot that we are not following for whatever reason.
i guess having sex and all the other stuff as well is a question of how much you believe in the halachic prohibition against it. obviously a huge chunk of jewish teens (teens that would classify themselves as modern orthodox) are not really shomer, and its a big issue. i know im not shomer! sometimes im not sure why, im still trying to understand the halachot pretaining to it, and im trying to understand how i feel about the whole thing.

to agree with bongodude and was it kiyara (?) one should totally save something for their husband/wife because that is the ultimate bond between two -- physically and spiritually. i think thats what sex is about, its not just a physical thing, its spiritual if it werent, so then why would there be all those halachot like nidda and shomer nigia etc.
i know kids that fully recognize this about sex, but they have no problem sharing that connection with others -- in other words theyve had 'premartial sex'.
i also know people that do save the connection.
both ways i guess are fine, morally...i guess. but this is jewish and orthodox forum....we all are in these kinds of school and (hopefully) striving to move foward in our lives in that jewish, halacha-abiding direction.

so ya, sex isnt okay halachically, but like every other thing in the world, its a personal issue between you and yourself and God.

no matter what the rabbis tell us, in the end youre gonna be the one to make the decision. no matter what any one decides, just decide on an intellectual level (ithink you should at least) not just the skin deepness of the situation.

judaism sets boundaries for a reason. its something to ponder.............


[dont know what i added here...but hey its something!]




magniv!

[xonethousandtearsx]

the fact that its a jewish forum is exactly why i asked- none of my friends are in serious relationships and understand the whole sex thing- they really havent dated or done things. and so i wanted to see what otehr jewish orthodox yeshiva kids were thinking. u think it s a halachic no-no- sex is a spiritual thing- cool thanks for sharing.

[J&B]

I'm new in here so I'm not very familiar with the expectations I should have from the content of these posts...
I'm really amused!
I just have the feeling that some people don't care about Judaism! I bet if they knew it better they would... It can't be otherwise...

ANyway, for whoever wants a biblical source for the prohibition of premarital sex it can be found on the pasuk that says "Lo Tihye Kedesha Mibenot Israel, Velo Ihye Kadesh Mibene Israel" (trans.: There shall not be any promiscuous [girl] among the daughters of Israel, and there shall not be any promiscuous [man] among the children of Israel. The Jewish judicial branch interpreted it as refering to premarital sex...

[luckst4rs]

we've all been in jewish schools pretty much our whole lives.
and some of us are really educated on the torah and judaism.
some of us are just rebelling.
some of us are finding it hard to believe in God right now. or at all.
so don't say we aren't educated in the matter cuz we are

[J&B]

luckst4rs and everyone else:
I need to apologize. Now that I read my post again, I saw that it does sound kind of offensive and attacking.
I'm sorry :( .
I really didn't mean it...

[kiyara]

hey no problem; were used to a bit worse.

[J&B]

I just wonder... Do girls keep themselves more than guys? I mean, if a guy has sex, maybe no one will ever know about... But a girl is losing something...

[PrUnE]

what do people really think about it? like high schools kids? jewish ones. i know some other people and sex is just like ok yea but its the public school culture but not that its bad - but i never heard any yeshiva kids express there opinions on it.Its ok if u have protection.

[2face78]

quick question
i no jewish teens have thought about sex, me personally will not go that far until marrige. but in reality do any of the teens in here when it comes down to it have the guts to do it. i think not and i also thik its good that no body does. everyone knows that u lose something when u are no longer a virgin and there is a reason more than only jews believe premarital sex is wrong. other religions do not really believe touching is wrong, just the sex. anyone can comment if they like. has anyone here ever actually had sex?
IM OUT

[luckst4rs]

i had sex with this guy i went out with for a long time. we have since broke up and i have no regrets about it. i don't personally think it's a big deal. i mean to me it's like doing other sexual acts except further. i really don't feel as if it's such a big thing. i mean i have only done it with one guy who i loved at the time but i would do it again with someone i am not IN love with. since i've done it its just like any other thing.... just a step further

[moo]

"we've all been in jewish schools pretty much our whole lives.
and some of us are really educated on the torah and judaism.
some of us are just rebelling.
some of us are finding it hard to believe in God right now. or at all.
so don't say we aren't educated in the matter cuz we are"

I disagree. I've had the same education you've had, at least in school. It's outside of school that I've learned other really cool stuff that's helped me and changed my mind about stuff. We do NOT learn in school the stuff we should, or need to, or anything that would help us in any real way. So yea u know stuff about judaism from school, u know maybe 30 dapim of gemara, a few parshas in chumash, a few prakim in nach, some scattered halachot (which btw is only the tip of the iceberg - something else i only fully began to appreciate outside of school) but do u any of that stuff on a deep level? do you know any hashkafa or philosophy? how judaism explians what it says and why it says it. I haven't learned that stuff in school, and i don't know other schools taht teach it. It's a shame. if u're finding it hard to believe in G-d u gotta help urself outside of school (maybe talking to a rabbi in school after hours would work, they know this stuff, there's just "no time" to teach it for wtvr reason). But anyway, there's a lot we don't know. what we know is like the basics, how to live, or rather look, like a jew, how to dress properly, how to say brachot, how to daven and keep shabbos, but we what we don't know is a LOT MORE than what we know. I've learned form experience that learning some of the deeper stuff in Torah explains a lot and helps with questions and problems.

[luckst4rs]

yea i just said that to j and b because if felt his comment was off and he acted like we are all just stupid kids who don't know sex is against judaism. i learn a lot from discussions in class- we don't always just learn- sometimes we just sit and talk about things. and i talk a lot with my dad about certain things in judaism. so i feel as if im pretty educated myself. i don't know everything of course and my decision isn't based on me reading everything and learning every aspect of the issue, it's based on my feelings and thoughts. i made a decision on what i felt right despite what everyone and everything had to say. so yea my comment was general i just was pissed at the assumption that we are all stupid kids who don't even try to learn or understand anything and make stupid decisions based on nothing.

[kiyara]

moo- you make a good point. i think thats what some ppl go to the israel schools for. but until we go there - can you give a little insight into what you mean about the deeper stuff? becase we DO have those disucssions every once in a while in school....

[2face78]

"i mean i have only done it with one guy who i loved at the time but i would do it again with someone i am not IN love with. "
i get wat u did the time with the guy you loved because its fine to be intamite with someone you love(not that i agree that wat u did is allowed but wtvr) but with someone else you dont love makes you look like a **** and very shallow. Take offense to that!
IM OUT

[luckst4rs]

i put IN LOVE in caps for a reason. i could love someone and not be in love with him. i have very close guy friends i would do it with for fun even if we never dated. btw 2face- if i were shallow i would be saying i would only do it with guys who are cute or something. me saying i would do it again with someone i'm not IN LOVE with is not shallow. i still have standards.

[2face78]

to be honest, i still think its shallow. u need to be in love to have sex otherwise it becomes pleasureful just because of ur body. when u do it with someone ur in love with its much more than that. the whole point of sex is to make love. when ur not in love u cant make love. wtvr-ur answer was half decent though. i think more highly of u now. talk to u later-respond
IM OUT

[luckst4rs]

as a person who's ACTUALLY had sex it really isn't all about the love. i mean it was great taking it to that high level with someone i love but it was also about feeling good at times. i would do it with a close friend because it's someone i'm comfortable with and i want to experience something pleasurable. i used to think it was all about the love when i first thought about it and did it but after that relationship ended i realized i don't have to go through a serious relationship like that to experience something so good.

[other]

to be honest, i still think its shallow. u need to be in love to have sex otherwise it becomes pleasureful just because of ur body. when u do it with someone ur in love with its much more than that. the whole point of sex is to make love. when ur not in love u cant make love. wtvr-ur answer was half decent though. i think more highly of u now. talk to u later-respond
IM OUT

Sometimes all you want is it to be pleasurefull. I know if it wasn't for jewdisum thats how i'd feel

[kiyara]

to you, lucks4rs, who has had sex-- now do u feel like u have nothing left for when u get married?

[2face78]

luck- to u i say- ur tainted veiw of sex is a product of the society we live in and i agree that ur feeling is correct about sometimes u just want to feel good. but there are other ways. especially for girls where masterbating isnt really wrong then y not do that.
IM OUT

[luckst4rs]

i have plenty to give when i get married. whoever i marry has ME. my personality and companionship, not just my body. yes i am a product of the society we live in and i admit it. my brother's generation didn't do sex the same as we do sex. but i'm ok with myself. i'm not ashamed, i'm not angry. if you don't agree with me then don't do it kudos to you. i decided to do it because i know i'm not gonna go almost all the way with guys but not have sex until im 23,24,25 when i get married. i mean that would be 8-10 years! that's just my viewpoint for MYSELF. you don't have to like it. but kiyara- i have all of myself to give despite the fact i am not a virgin anymore. i can understand how having sex for the first time with your husband/wife is an amazing thing but i didn't want to wait. that's just me

[other]

to you, lucks4rs, who has had sex-- now do u feel like u have nothing left for when u get married?

Is sex the only reason ppl get married? Unless you're very far to the right, i thought there was more to marriage.

[luckst4rs]

thats what i said. i have more to give than just sex in marriage

[2face78]

but a large part of marrige is a sex life and guess what-it will bother ur husband that u have someone to compare him and his performance to. also, ur 15-in most circles thats way too young for sex, not only the frum or jewish for that matter.
IM OUT

[luckst4rs]

im not 15.... so yea thanks for assuming.
also who says my future husband will be a virgin?

[2face78]

i decided to do it because i know i'm not gonna go almost all the way with guys but not have sex until im 23,24,25 when i get married. i mean that would be 8-10 years! do the math 23-8 to 25-10 assuming the logical conclusion-maybe u should read what u wrote before u comment on my assumptions. and this may be sad and sucky for girls but a guy being a virgin and a girl being a virgin are completely dif by halachic and social standards and u have to carry ur lack of virginity around with u forever while the guy doesnt-physically
IM OUT

[kiyara]

you guys make valid points - im not gonna go out and have sex now, but i kind of said that because thats what we've been told, ya know...save something for ur husband. theres truth to that- but only in the physical/sexual realm.

[luckst4rs]

my math isn't off. i was 15 when i lost my virginity but i'm not now. and maybe i'm not gonna marry who cares about that kinda thing. it would be hypocritical for him if he did it and would care i did. not everyone is super frum. i'm not unreligious. i know plenty of people who have or will have sex before they are married in the modern orthodox world. many jewish teens these days just dont care......

[luckst4rs]

in my circle my friends dont care. so yea. just because you and your friends dont agree with it doesnt make me feel the need to be ashamed. or worried for when im getting married. the jewish world has changed heavily. open your eyes

[2face78]

who are ur last comments geared towards-if towards me that my response is that my eyes are open. in fact ive gone further than most pple i no and am freinds with. i just think sex is a big deal and u missed my point about 15. my point was u were fifteen when u had sex which is wrong to many pple aside from Jews. and what would u do if the protection u use didnt work, or the person ur having oral sex with has a STD
IM OUT

[other]

do the math 23-8 to 25-10 assuming the logical conclusion-maybe u should read what u wrote before u comment on my assumptions. and this may be sad and sucky for girls but a guy being a virgin and a girl being a virgin are completely dif by halachic and social standards and u have to carry ur lack of virginity around with u forever while the guy doesnt-physically
IM OUT


Being that most people get married out of love for one another in this day and age (i'm asuiming we're all "modern" orthodox jews or less :) ) how could you go out and say my wife wasn't a virgin? So she may have made a mistake. You get her as a commodity.

[luckst4rs]

um how many people do you know that aren't jews?
my non-jewish friends all have sex more frequently than my jewish friends so yea its only frowned upon a lot in the jewish community.
but honestly if your goal is to make me feel bad or regret it its not working.
i am prefectly ok with the choices ive made.
i am not a bad person because i, as a young jewish girl, decided to have sex at a young age. im ok with it you should be too

[2face78]

ok let me explain myself to both other and luck. first to other bc his comments were first. i say to u that i feel that any guy is going to think about the fact that his wife has had sex before. he is going to feel somewhat uncomfortable and i dont think he should because marriage is based on love and not virginity-but the fact is it will cause tension just because the guy is going to feel uncomfortable. and to u luck. i might be sheltered although i dont think i am; however, im not refering to the teenage group when i say that other cultures also frown upon sex at fifteen. im talking about the culture and religion as a whole-meenign the adult agegroup. HOWEVER I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST U OR UR DECISION. in fact i just gave advice to a freind of mine to take the next step(happened to be second) because i felt she wanted it and i think it was the best advice i could give. u are allowed and welcomed to do as u choose however i warn u that guys might have a problem. basically its not ur fault that guys have issues and u for sure didnt cause them. its just that if u want to be straight u have to realize that the guy has issues and u need to sort of accomodate them to an extent. im not sure if my comments made sense- i sort of rambled but ttyl and respond
IM OUT

[other]

Big correction on my post: I meant to say y u don't get her as a comidity :-)

p.s.

I was just talkin about jews because they are the olny ones who have a real problem with you not bein a vergin

[luckst4rs]

yea i understand 2face
just i made a decision. no regrets.
i don't WANT to marry someone who is so religious/doenst love me enough that they wouldnt marry me bc im not a virgin. thats what i was trying to say in terms of that.
i know ill marry someone who wont care. bc thats the kind of person id fall in love with.

[2face78]

to be honest other-im a little lost but ok
IM OUT

[randomness123]

well kiyara, i know u said the valid points made dont make you want t go out and have sex but they kinda want me to, i mean now i see this forum and realize how many people have i i dont see it as such a bad thing anymore... luckst, youve been there... do you think it's ok for a person to have sex (not that what you did was wrong...)? if you have no regrets, do u plan on doing it again b4 you're married?

[luckst4rs]

i definately think its okay. i mean obviosuly not everyone wants to and not everyone is ready for it but its not such a horrible thing. and i said i would do it again. i mean i still think its ok i did it the first times why would it not be ok now? or in the future?

[The Nameless One]

you're making it something regular and not special, this is a privaledge for a mand and his wife and you are abusing it. it might not be strictly against the torah (though i beleive it is, i can't find the source, i'll get back to you when i can) it's morally wrong to just do it with every girl you can get. It's not a nice characteristic.

[luckst4rs]

number one im a girl- number 2- i dont do it with every guy i see or talk to. in fact i only have done it with one boy so far. i just said i would do it again in the future. and i think its not for u to decide that its a priveladge that im abusing

[The Nameless One]

sorry about that, just whatever u do, don't sleep around, most ppl dont have any respect for ppl like that,

[luckst4rs]

just because i have had sex and will have sex before marriage doesn't mean im automatically sleepin around. i have morals and standards and thats just disgusting to go aorund from guy to guy

[randomness123]

totally tru luckst, dont jump the gun nameless. were not saying sex isnt special or that anyone who's had it is a ****, i know if i do it b4 marriage itll totally mean somehitng to me and thats the wa, even if the relationship doesnt work out, that i wont have regrets. PLUS sex is like a lot better if theres passion and emotion attached, not just sex for the hell of it--

[2face78]

first for nameless- the source is obvious- luckst is a nida so she and the dude are chayiv karet-unless she isnt one which i dont- im sry if im wrong there luckst.
also for u luck-what u did was the right decision for u but not necisarily for anyone else. i would not go preeching that u have had sex to pple u no-just advice-btw, sry bout the harsh words about u to nameless
to random-read the whole thread before u think sex before marrige is automatically fine. it isnt by torah standards
IM OUT

[randomness123]

sex b4 marriage is complicated and torah compliczates it even more---sumtimes things get so frustrating its just like who cares anymore?? and u need to lose all your emotions and pour it into sex, which ive pretty much done in my past ....
not to sound too cliche--How can something that feels so right be so wrong??

[luckst4rs]

luckst is a nida so she and the dude are chayiv karet-unless she isnt one which i dont- im sry if im wrong there luckst.

what? i know nidah but whats chayiv karet? and im not what nidah or chayiv karet?

[whuknu]

chayiv karet means someone who dies by the hands of Hashem- but 2face that is for Hashem to judge not u. and if one does teshuvah then I'm sure Hashem forgives.

[kiyara]

about karet- weve been saying that term since grade school...and i ve heard diff interpretations, that ur kids will die in ur lifeteime, that god will deal with u after u die, that u dont get olam haba....come on, what is this? sounds like a mystical idea that could very well be some metaphor. i mean - if i accidentally eat a crumb of pasta on pesach am i really gonna have the worst end ever imagined? what about the not religious jews? dont they qualify for karet like several times over?

[yenhuh]

it doesnt matter what it is, all we know is its not good. also karet only apllies if you do it on purpose so nonreligiouse people who weer born non religiouse, it porb doesnt apply to, smae by eatin a crumb by accident.

[taon]

kares is only if its done intentionally, a certain amount, and teshuvah can override it.

[2face78]

to all those who tried clarifying my statement ot luck. i was just repeating what the torah says. i think its important that i said chayiv karet not die because the chiyuv is wat the torah says and it has ambiguity in it bc we dont no its definition. it is for hashem to decide and clearly a person who does teshuva or does the deed by accident is not chayiv-wtvr it meens to be chayiv-
IM OUT

[luckst4rs]

ye well i dont think im gonna die or my kids will die or anything just because i had sex before marriage

[2face78]

u are absolutely intitled to ur opinion and ur probably right anyway bc im sure there are lot of other good things u have and will do during ur lifetime,
IM OUT

[randomness123]

the truth is i dont think any1 will ever rerally know how god chooses to punish us...maybe He'll wait until we get "up there" and itll be dealt with then, but i dont think havin sex is just somethin to go unnnoticed and just be okay like it never happened there has ot be some remorse. i still wouldnt mind havin sexs tho now b/c i feel like i follow so many of gods rules and i tend to live the moment and not to think to much bout the future

[luckst4rs]

yea im one to live in the moment. i want to have fun and experience my teen years the way i deem appropriate.
i dont know what god'll do to me in the future and whatever he does he'll do. but i dont feel bad for anything ive done. what i feel bad for ive apologized but i cant do teshuvah for something i feel ok with. so if god has a problem with it then bring it. i can understand there might be some "punishment" cuz it must be against the torah for a reason i just dont think its something so serious......

[baseball guy]

There is a prohibition in the Torah against premarital sex. It says "And to a woman who is in the impureity (I hope I spelled that right) of Nidah, don't come close to uncover nakedness." Niddah refers to the time a woman is in her menstrual cycle. Once a woman goes through her cycle, she is forbidden from sex until she goes to the mikvah, for the mikvah is the thing that makes her pure again. Since unmarried women are not allowed to go to the mikvah (this is not in the Torah but elsewhere - maybe gemara?), you can't have sex before marriage. So to answer your question, the Torah does comment on this issue.

[baseball guy]

Luckst4rs - There is a much bigger question you are raising here: What do we do about halachas we dont agree with? Which bringes us to a bigger questions: Why do we follow halacha? If we don't, do we believe in Judaism? If yes, what is Judaism if it doesn't include halacha? What do you think about these issues?

[randomness123]

i guess only time will tell, huh?

[luckst4rs]

yea well for me if i dont believe in something i might not keep it. depending on what it is and if i feel ok following it or not. but thats a whole seperate discussion- this topic is about whether people think sex is ok or not, not what to do if you dont beleive in a halacha

[yenhuh]

you must take into acount the fact that weer just humans, just cause it feels right, doesnt neessesaraly meen it is. halacha isnt aimed to make us hate our lives, and not be able to do anything, if it is wed all be comanded to never marry, or do anything ever. you must take into acount though the fact that were, only human and therefore were pretty stupid, why else wood anyone choose to smoke whne they know itll kill them. G-d know a lot better than we do, and just cause we dont see something wrong with something doesnt make it right. A kid for example might wanna play in the street, well that a pretty stupid thing to do unless he wants to get runover, only his parent knows that hell get hit by a car. Your discisions are your decisions, but mabey you do want to take into acount that in ten years youll be a different person, and youll never be able to take back the things you've done. but.. thats for you to decide.

[baseball guy]

Please ignore my first post, I didnt realize there was more than one page so I answered the quesiton does the torah prohibit premarital sex. Sorry about that.

yea well for me if i dont believe in something i might not keep it. depending on what it is and if i feel ok following it or not. but thats a whole seperate discussion- this topic is about whether people think sex is ok or not, not what to do if you dont beleive in a halacha

Well if you believe sex is ok, then just realize you also don't believe in halacha. That is fine, but I am just pointing that fact out, for if you don't believe in halacha, then why keep any of it? Go drive to McDonalds and get a Big Mac on Shabbos. Am I wrong?

[whuknu]

just making sure of something baseball guy- u sed sex- not premarital sex- sex in itself is not a sin, its illicit sex that is a sin.

[other]

Please ignore my first post, I didnt realize there was more than one page so I answered the quesiton does the torah prohibit premarital sex. Sorry about that.



Well if you believe sex is ok, then just realize you also don't believe in halacha. That is fine, but I am just pointing that fact out, for if you don't believe in halacha, then why keep any of it? Go drive to McDonalds and get a Big Mac on Shabbos. Am I wrong?

Who says you can't belive in halacha but not follow it? I know that there are times where i know somethings wrong and i've done it anyway.

[whuknu]

definetly agreed other- like i sed in the homosexuality forum- no one keeps every single jewish law- well i mean i dont know of anyone that does.

baseball guy- havent u ever spoken lashon hara? does this mean u dont believen halacha? Ive spoken lashon hara b4, but i believen halacha.

[luckst4rs]

yea plus just because i don't believe premarital sex is wrong doesn't mean i think it's okay to eat a big mac. i feel ok with some things and i feel wrong about some things. and other is right- just because you don't follow halacha doesn't mean you don't believe in judaism and EVERYTHING from one thing you don't like.

[other]

While on the topic I guess I’ll mention something relating to this:

I just moved from a community which had a growing black hat community to a more liberal\modern Jewish community with a regular shul as well as a chabbad, and I must say my mom has become relatively active in the chabbad, and when I asked her why she said because they were happy with whatever little you do and didn't care what you didn't do, where as our old community would help to do one thing until you had done plenty of others

[baseball guy]

Do you think premarital sex is ok to do? If so, how can you believe in the Torah, which states otherwise? I may say lashon hara, but I dont think it is ok. I do it because I cant help myself or because I dont realize what Im doing. Are you sure you are not just guilty and trying to justify your actions? I am sorry for being so blunt, but if yes, then you probably just feel it is too difficult to resist having sex. If so, then thats a separate issue and one you can deal with gradually. What is the true nature of your issue with this prohibition?

[luckst4rs]

i don't feel guilty and i'm not trying to justify anything
but to say i'm a bad jew and i shouldnt follow other rules is ridiculous
yes its against the torah directly but i wanna do it so let me live with my actions

[randomness123]

i wouldnt say anyone who violates it has a tru issue with the pohibition i just think sometimes things feel really good and enjoyable and theyre hard to avoid, especially when you start b/c ure not shomer...then one thing leads to another, where to draw the line? its not like im have a little meat and then a little cheese and then cross the line to mcdonalds...bad comparisson..

[2face78]

the whole purpose of negiah is to draw a line. so if a person believes pre marital sex is wrong and cant draw a line closer to it that no touching at all should be shomer.
IM OUT

[whuknu]

ok so im religious, i believen God, I dont think that premarital sex is wrong. But i dont see anything wrong with negiah- such as hugging a friend. im not talking about major kissing or nething. just a hug. thats what i do -thats it. and i know according to halacha is wrong, but i dont see what is wrong with it- yes i know the whole nidah thing... but u know what the torah sez? its sez not to come close to revealing nakedness- everyone looks at this diferently. some ppl say u cant become close even thru talking so not talking to opposite sex. others say no touching opposite sex. others say like me- its ok to hug ur friend or to tap on the shoulder or whtvr.

[randomness123]

tapping touching is all cool, but i think to consider oneseelf mostly shomer they should not hug b/c it totally can lead to smoething--tust me, been there--just a friendsly warning, whuknu

[baseball guy]

Luckst4rs - My question is if you disagree with part of the Torah, then how can you believe in it? That is my question.
Randomness - I agree with you. However, that is not what Luckst4rs case is. For people who are "addicted" to sex, that is a different issue. Luckst4rs is denying the validity of the Torah's prohibition.
Whuknu - I agree with you. I look at the words - dont come close to uncover nakedness and I say to myself the fences in the shulchan aruch made (no lighthearted talking is one) should be adapted to our time and society when men and women are basically together and talk to each other all the time. I feel nowadays, if you would touch a guy in that way (and you are straight), then you can touch a girl in that way. Here I am not denying the validity of the Torah's prohibition (Dont come close to uncover nakedness), I just those words now have a different connotation because we live in a different world than R' Cairo (author of shulchan aruch) lived. So whuknu, I agree with you.

Shabbat Shalom to all.

[whuknu]

thank u randomness- but for me its not really like that. ive been doing that since ninth and now im in 12th- ithasnt become anything more than a hug. in fact- maybe even less, i rarely hug my guy friends. i mean my really close friend had just come back from college and i hadnt seen him in months so i gave him a hug- that was my first hug in a while. and it certainly did not lead to anything. maybe for some it leads to more- but thats why u need to set ur own boundaries AND stick to them. im sticking to my boundaries.

[other]

In theory its ok, and i myself am ok with it, but one thing does lead to another if your not carefull.


ok so im religious, i believen God, I dont think that premarital sex is wrong. But i dont see anything wrong with negiah- such as hugging a friend. im not talking about major kissing or nething. just a hug. thats what i do -thats it. and i know according to halacha is wrong, but i dont see what is wrong with it- yes i know the whole nidah thing... but u know what the torah sez? its sez not to come close to revealing nakedness- everyone looks at this diferently. some ppl say u cant become close even thru talking so not talking to opposite sex. others say no touching opposite sex. others say like me- its ok to hug ur friend or to tap on the shoulder or whtvr.

[whuknu]

that is why i have my boundaries- that is why i am careful.

[randomness123]

well in that case i guess im really envious of u whuknu...lol

[randomness123]

are all commendments meant to be taken with the same severity and intensity? or aer some by definition not as bad as others

[2face78]

obviously some are considered worse than others baised on punishment
IM OUT

[shufleye]

Admins Note: this thread has been split. posts on how open/public discussion about stuff affects yer personal choices can be found in the chit-chat section under this thread: http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=467 (http://www.thelockers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=467)

[The Nameless One]

it's against the torah to reveal the nakedness of a nidah women, you're nedah untill right b4 u get married when u go the the mikvah. therefor premarital sex is not allowed. And i agree with u baseball guy, how can you question the vadility of the torah and how can you say some mitzvot are good and you'll listen to them but others yo don't care about, it doesn't work like that.

it's fine to set ur own boundries though, as long as they are within the boundries of the torah. i would give my guy friends a high five and i talk to them, i see nothing wrong with being friends with them.

[2face78]

ur comments dont make sense nameless. that is that u r saying that u should stay within the boundaries of the torah yet u slap a guys hand. wat if he takes that to meen that u like him-thats derech chiba therefore ur being a hypocrit. also, it is possible to follow some mitzvot while not following others. it isnt the best thing to be doing but we are only human and God does understand that. just like parents pick their battles with kids about doing bad things- i think God does that too. He looks at thw whole picture of a person as being good or bad.
IM OUT

[whuknu]

2face- if someone doesnt know that the guy likes them then its really not their fault... i dont think neways.

but i agree with u that not everyone keeps every mitzvah- like i sed b4 we've all done something wrong, such as say lashon hara- ppl take that lightly when really that can hurt alot too.

[2face78]

ayt
IM OUT

[randomness123]

theres no line as to what makes a person good or bad and i dont think that doing one thing like sex will classify some1 as bad...every1 has the right to make their own consciouss decision and sex is just another thing ppl decide isnt as big a deal as the torah makes it out to be...like lasdhon hara that ppl say all the time even tho they mitew not want to, but sometimes they do want to and do it consciously b/c they need to get sumthin off there chest or sumthin

[whuknu]

well the lashon hara ur talking about- like to get ur anger out is one thing- but if its purely gossip- i dont think that compares to sex- i would think its worse! sex is something u decide to do and it doesnt hurt some else- lashon hara (that is gossip) is hurting other(s).

[2face78]

ur allowed to do it for the right reasons-its only assur if its useless lashon hara. like gossip- and from a halachic standpoint-not that most pple here care-lashon hara in a way could be worse
IM OUT

[whuknu]

i sed the gossip kind! and i agree it coud be alot worse!

[forget]

this is about sex people!

[whuknu]

forget- u r right- but we were trying to make a point- saying that not everyone keeps every mitzvah (this is not to say u shouldnt or that it is ok to pick and choose) but its true- most ppl its very difficult to do everything the way the Torah sez. so if they are a good Jew and everything but their one thing that is so hard for them not to do is sex, then maybe its not so bad... or maybe they could work on it... but either way it was just a comparison to sex.

[yenhuh]

randomness, There deffinently is a line which makes a person good or bad. Granted just because someone sinned once doesnt nesseseraly garanty them eternity in hell, but to say that we can decide that "sex is just another thing ppl decide isnt as big a deal as the torah makes it out to be," is kind of foolish. I assume that you acknowlage G-d's infinate wisdom over any human being, so to say that he made too big a deal of of something is simply incorect. And something is not neccesaraly justified just because a lot of people people do it, like if you go to a place weer people just kill for the heck of it, that doesnt give you the right to kill someone. Obviously people make mistakes, and often do stuff on impulse, but to conciesly say that sex is ok and theres nothing wrong with it is stupidity.

[other]

forget- u r right- but we were trying to make a point- saying that not everyone keeps every mitzvah (this is not to say u shouldnt or that it is ok to pick and choose) but its true- most ppl its very difficult to do everything the way the Torah sez. so if they are a good Jew and everything but their one thing that is so hard for them not to do is sex, then maybe its not so bad... or maybe they could work on it... but either way it was just a comparison to sex.


That about sumerizies my weekend. In the past six 4 years i went from being a jew who ignored alot of laws to being am a verry religous jew. I have always had trouble "keeping my hands off myslef", but i always told myslef (or at least tried to tell myslef) that i'd never do anything more. This weekend i did something more, without even thinking twice about it. I don't think of myslef as a bad jew (i am a bit ashemed to even daven, but i'm starting to get over that) i just look at myslef kind of as i have with many other things before and since i've been become religous: i'm doing as much as i can, maybe one day i'll be on a higher level.

Somehting else occured to me this weekend: Many of the "good" advoisor\counselor type people (age 19-24) all say the same story: "i got to third, but then i went israel and now i'm shomer" maybe we are all following in a path like that. I'd venture to say 90-95% of male jews (from all sects) masturbated at one point when they were a tenager, most people manged to reconsile it, eventualy we will do the same

[forget]

while some kids, go all the way or whatever then they just go to college and they continue from there. some kids go to israel but don't become shomer. so it's not all the same path

[PrUnE]

what do people really think about it? like high schools kids? jewish ones. i know some other people and sex is just like ok yea but its the public school culture but not that its bad - but i never heard any yeshiva kids express there opinions on it.As long as u protection its alright.

[whuknu]

other- good for u for taking it slow- rushing into anything especially religion is not a good thing. ur right- it seems as though the yr in israel is like a "clean up yr" any college students got any thoughts on this?

[baseball guy]

I dont understand this concept of israel yr being a clean up year. What is this? people have decided that anything before israel is ok to do b/c we will stop after israel! So let me get this straight. The activity automatically changes status form allowed to prohibited all b/c u lived and learned in a different country for a year! Am I the only one that finds this weird? Plus, why would you want to stop in Israel? because your Rabbis tell you to? Since when did you all listen to everything your Rabbis said?

[whuknu]

defiently agreed basuall guy- as a sr i plan to go to israel next yr God willing... but its not going to be a clean up yr... u know why? cuz theres really not much to clean up! i dont do drugs, drink, have sex, none of that. I am going to israel to learn more and to maybe find the right path- the right direction - the right things for me to beleiven. I think its weird to, and i dont get it... israel is not a rehab.

[other]

I dont understand this concept of israel yr being a clean up year. What is this? people have decided that anything before israel is ok to do b/c we will stop after israel! So let me get this straight. The activity automatically changes status form allowed to prohibited all b/c u lived and learned in a different country for a year! Am I the only one that finds this weird? Plus, why would you want to stop in Israel? because your Rabbis tell you to? Since when did you all listen to everything your Rabbis said?

its not a concpet as much as its a phenomon

[whuknu]

its not a phenomenon- or atleast it shouldnt be. u cant do aveirot and then say its ok cuz im going to do teshuva- otherwise whats the point?

[forget]

yea i dont understand how kids go throughout high school not giving a crap what teachers and rabbis say but in israel BAM they sometimes come back different people. israel must have some really good brainwashing techniques.

[other]

its not a phenomenon- or atleast it shouldnt be. u cant do aveirot and then say its ok cuz im going to do teshuva- otherwise whats the point?

Well, i'm not saying and don't think that, and most of those ppl don't think that when their doing it. What i meant by it was maybe i'm just not strong enfough, and in that i'm not alone,

[whuknu]

other- i am also not so strong when it coems to certain things (like chocalate ;)) but either way israel is still not a rehab.

[baseball guy]

I really dont understand this whole year in Israel thing as a soul-searching year. I understand if you want to learn for a year just for the sake of learning, but you dont need Israeli Rabbis to find your soul for you. Thats your job.
If you think sex is ok, then have sex now and later. If not, dont have sex at all.

Can somebody explain the logic for me?

[whuknu]

baseball guy- soul searching is very diferent from rehab as i called it. sometimes to find urself u got to go out and search for it. sometimes its not just in u somewhere. the rabbis are generaly not israeli unless they are israeli schools- but the american yeshivot are run by americans. they dont find ur soul for u- they only help u get to the path u need to be on to find it!
btw- sex is ok- its illicit sex that is not- meaning sex b4 marriage.

[forget]

why is pre-marital sex not ok?

[whuknu]

im not exactly sure thats probably a better question for the rabbi. prtly cuz of nidah- but i mean u could just go to the mikvah and the girl become pure so that would be ok...but thats not allowed-not sure why...

[WhoAmI]

to think of it, im not so sure i have the issur clear in my mind either, its just somethign i always took for granted...but we know sex isnt only pru u'rvu b/c the mishnah gives guidelins on how many times a week to do, it's meant o be fun, then why is it wrong?

[whuknu]

oh its not wrong! its a mitzvah for married ppl to have sex! even if its not just for pru ur vu.

[WhoAmI]

i mean wrong b4 marriage... and if u have sex b4 marriage, you think the lights off rule applies? if ure violating sex, couldnt you violate lights?

[2face78]

what kind of question u asking whoami. if u dont care about hilchot nida why the hell do u care about the minor halacha about the freaken lights on.
IM OUT

[J&B]

any pre-marital sex is considered prostitution (truely, why wouldn't it be?). there is a prohibition of being prostitute - either male or female. It's somewhere in Debarim "lo tihyeh kedesha mibnot israel velo ihyeh kadesh mibney israel".

[other]

any pre-marital sex is considered prostitution (truely, why wouldn't it be?). there is a prohibition of being prostitute - either male or female. It's somewhere in Debarim "lo tihyeh kedesha mibnot israel velo ihyeh kadesh mibney israel".


why wouldn't it be: because it is consetual sex between to people who love eachother, and neither party is geting paid

[whuknu]

premarital sex= prostitution???? wow thats a little sad... its not permitted cuz the womans in nidah- so if a man and woman have sex when they are married and she is in nidah- is that prostitution? sin yes- but not prostitution!
in any case this thread isnt about that- if ur not going to care about if ur having premarital sex u might as well do it however u liike.

[J&B]

The jewish halachic definition of prostitution has nothing to do with the financing part of that act... Prostitution is any kind of sex which out of the context of "ishut" (husband-wife life).
It's not applied to every form of forbidden sex. Just to premarital sex.

[WhoAmI]

but is it just something we dont know the reason? just that "prostitution" is wrong... and not allowed b4 marriage

[2face78]

any pre-marital sex is considered prostitution (truely, why wouldn't it be?). there is a prohibition of being prostitute - either male or female. It's somewhere in Debarim "lo tihyeh kedesha mibnot israel velo ihyeh kadesh mibney israel".
ur only quoting one opinion- the rambam but the raavad believes that a woman who has sex before marriage who isnt a nida with one man is considered a peelegesh and not a prostitute. but of course if either the guy or girl has sex with more than one person at a time even if not nida still considered a prostitute and a **** or manslut-whatever the hell that is. actually not sure about manslut bc u can have more than one peelegesh but def for girl
IM OUT

[2face78]

but is it just something we dont know the reason? just that "prostitution" is wrong... and not allowed b4 marriage
wat do u meen.
IM OUT

[J&B]

all right! you got me!
well, you know what they say:
"if one was to write the shortest possible book in the world, it would be the one listing the issues that are not controversial in Judaism."
LOL!

[WhoAmI]

whats the dif. between pilegesh and prostitute? according to torah--wouldnt they be equally as bad b/c its all premarital sex

[J&B]

well, the biblical prohibition goes specifically for prostitution. you could avoid it by calling it different names... but haramba"m makes much more sense to me!

[other]

Maybe this shouldn't be called prostistuion then, because its not; Maybe it should be called having sex outside of marrage?

[whuknu]

agreed- david had pilegeshot (is that the term?) and so did yaakov and many other Jewish ppl we learn about. were they prostitutes?

[J&B]

No!
I think it's rashi that says that pilagshot were actually married with ktuvah and everything... they just weren't official wifes (for example, for their sons to be part of the inheritance... )

[whuknu]

i dk... either way all of yaakovs sons got inheritance... either way thats not whats important here- is rashi the only one who sez they were not merely concubines? what is his reasoning behind this?

[whuknu]

and is it for one specific case or any case where there is a concubine?

[other]

a peligiesh isn't a "prostiturte", its a second wife. Big diffrence.

[WhoAmI]

it seems in the context the torah often uses the term, it just means not the preferred wife. but did they just marry them to sleep with them? and ppl like david and yehuda did have sex b4 marriage...and david lost a son from batsheva b4 shlomo was born! sdo was that a punishment?

[whuknu]

just bc they did it doesnt make it right- i assume that the baby they lost was the punishment though.
pilegesh i always learnt was basically someone they just married to have sex with...but they werent really married or something like that. i mean technically rachel was yaakovs 'second' wife- but in reality she was his real wife.

[Magick123]

Actually a pilegesh is a concubine, or a wife with no ketubah. basically it is a lower status than wife. even a second or third wife has a ketubah and rights like any wife would. a concubine does not.

[whuknu]

but no ketubah makes her technically not a wife!

[WhoAmI]

uh magick we already covered that and in the torah sense most ppl say all the characters Pilagshot were actually married to them not just "on the side

[whuknu]

whoami- with or w/o a ketubah?

[whuknu]

actually- we are getting way off topic... maybe we can try to get back on track?

[other]

a pelgiish is a someone who has a man has "on the side", but that woman can olny have one man, many men can't have the same peligish

[J&B]

....(all previous posts)....therefore, pre-marital sex, jewish-wise, is an act of prostitution. And as such it falls into the biblical prohibition.

[WhoAmI]

ouch. well, that may be the technical term J&b but im not such a fan of calling it that. really. but honestly-is it ok. fine, its not OK, but shouldd it be shunned? is it accepted? if you've done it once is it ok for you do it again? i dunno i read the whole post but i think im forgetting all our answers--if we ever gave any, we tend to get off track (lol whuknu, thanks for putting us back on)

[whuknu]

no problem whoami-in any case- maybe ur thinking today- today prostitution is a job in which a person gets paid for sex- and thats what we think when we think prostitution right? maybe once upon a time it meant something else. illicit sex in other words.
and if uve done and u want to keep sinning-then by all means go ahead- but lets say uve done it and regret it- would u do it again?

[WhoAmI]

probably not (i dont really know from experience), but sometimes it just feels so good, like masturbating, that if you have the oppurtunity you might do it again. but i guess its just as bad to do it the second time as it was the first. if not worse b/c u didnt learn from yor mistaskes

[elbubbniaevili]

One, who said that prosititusion is always bad. I mean did anyone ever condem Tamar for what she did with Judah? No, they told her that she was right in what she was doing. (Not to say that i promote prosititusion, because i am very much against it)

Also there are episodes in jewish history where there was primarital sex, like with ruth and boaz. Which brings up another point that i am confuzed about. If sex and being a virgin are so important in Jewish law why was yeboom such an important practice, because most previously married women will have had sex, even if their husband died without them having a child.

This brings up anothe one of my many points, many of which have already been brought up. Though we all learn jewish history, we all dont nessicarilyfollow the torah the way our ansestors did. I mean i dont go out everyday and sacrifice my best cow, but thats just me. Most people make the decsions, whether about sex or not, based in the way and society they grew up in. I know that my father didnt grow up in a kosher home, but no keeps one. Wait i think what i just said contridicted my point anyway. If i was raised being taught that sex before marrige was ok, then most likely i would have sesx before marrige. Where as if i was raised in a house where sex was strictly forbidden before marrige, then i would probaly not have it. Execpt if i was rebelling which many teenagers do.

Basicly, it is what J&B said before Inless you follow the torah to the letter which ever one that might be :) Sex is a decison YOU make based on ur knowledge and opions on the topic. I think we have come to a point in the forum where we are just aruging about the halachic laws on sex and what our opions are, and who's opinions we think are wrong. The title of this forum was sex is it ok, and we, at least in my view, have come to the conclusion that it is one's choice that decides whether it is right or wrong for you. Is aruging about this any longer really help any on or make a big difference? I dont think we are going to change anyone's mind, we are just giving them the tools and ammo to do that for themselves.


Whew, I feel like i just wrote an essay rather then a reply!

[other]

One, who said that prosititusion is always bad. I mean did anyone ever condem Tamar for what she did with Judah? No, they told her that she was right in what she was doing. (Not to say that i promote prosititusion, because i am very much against it)

Also there are episodes in jewish history where there was primarital sex, like with ruth and boaz. Which brings up another point that i am confuzed about. If sex and being a virgin are so important in Jewish law why was yeboom such an important practice, because most previously married women will have had sex, even if their husband died without them having a child.

This brings up anothe one of my many points, many of which have already been brought up. Though we all learn jewish history, we all dont nessicarilyfollow the torah the way our ansestors did. I mean i dont go out everyday and sacrifice my best cow, but thats just me. Most people make the decsions, whether about sex or not, based in the way and society they grew up in. I know that my father didnt grow up in a kosher home, but no keeps one. Wait i think what i just said contridicted my point anyway. If i was raised being taught that sex before marrige was ok, then most likely i would have sesx before marrige. Where as if i was raised in a house where sex was strictly forbidden before marrige, then i would probaly not have it. Execpt if i was rebelling which many teenagers do.

Basicly, it is what J&B said before Inless you follow the torah to the letter which ever one that might be :) Sex is a decison YOU make based on ur knowledge and opions on the topic. I think we have come to a point in the forum where we are just aruging about the halachic laws on sex and what our opions are, and who's opinions we think are wrong. The title of this forum was sex is it ok, and we, at least in my view, have come to the conclusion that it is one's choice that decides whether it is right or wrong for you. Is aruging about this any longer really help any on or make a big difference? I dont think we are going to change anyone's mind, we are just giving them the tools and ammo to do that for themselves.


Whew, I feel like i just wrote an essay rather then a reply!


1.Tamar wasn't totaly doing what she did voleneraly (anotherone of those one things led to another)

2. Yevom isn't about the sex (well, unless you look at sex just as a reproductive act, which the torah more or less does), it is done to make shure that their is a heir to someone's estate, becuase people started to abuse it and even kill thier brother for his wife.


3. as to your last paragraph: that is true about most of jewdisum, to some extent it is what you think is right.

[WhoAmI]

elbubbniaevili--well thought out, well said....AMEN

[elbubbniaevili]

whoami- thanks

Not that i think that discussing things isnt important because i totally think that it is, but i feel that this argument has gone on to long and that everyone is just repaeting them selves
shalom amigos,
elbbubniaevili

[J&B]

One, who said that prosititusion is always bad. I mean did anyone ever condem Tamar for what she did with Judah? No, they told her that she was right in what she was doing. (Not to say that i promote prosititusion, because i am very much against it)

Also there are episodes in jewish history where there was primarital sex, like with ruth and boaz. Which brings up another point that i am confuzed about. If sex and being a virgin are so important in Jewish law why was yeboom such an important practice, because most previously married women will have had sex, even if their husband died without them having a child.... It's true. B4 the torah was given, premarital sex was OK.

[WhoAmI]

yea but what about all the avot keeping 613 mitzvot? (or as many as they could without a beit mikdash and wtvr)?that opinion seems to be contradicted so many times!

[fuzzylampshade]

honestly i dont really know anymore. i used to feel so strongly that premarital sex was definitely bad. no question on it. but that was back when i was still more sheltered in terms of who my friends were. slowly i started realizing that people i knew were starting to do those kinds of things, and some had been doing it for awhile. it shocked me to even think that these things happened with kids in religious schools. but now im starting to get used to it and as im getting used to it i think im also getting more ok with it. im not ok with it for me though, but im getting more fine with when other people have sex. personally as tempting as it is to have sex now, i just cant imagine how much i could end up regretting it. and that is definitly something i think i want to save for my husband. makes it more special.

[elbubbniaevili]

What the jewish community and schools need to do, if they want to encourage no sex until marrige is to have sex education, and even if they dont want to have that they could have like disscussion groups with teachers and adults and stuff who have wait and with ppl who didnt and regreted it. I know that in my school, im in an all girls tefilah lead by the headmistress where after we pray she always brings uo issue and stuff that she want to hear our opions or have us talk about. And not just sex, also drugs alcohol, political happenings, and school policy. I think is more schools had something like this then students wouldnt have sex as young and unmarried.

One surprising thing i found out though, my school would expell a student for becoming pregnant,

[fuzzylampshade]

youre school expelled someone for getting pregnant? im trying to decide if i agree with that or not...was the girl planning on going through with the pregnancy? like if she was going to have an abortion than i defintily dont agree with it but i dont know im bad at this stuff

[forget]

um yea... talking with authority REALLY influences you not to have sex.
i dunno about you but we make decisions based on what we want and what we decide not what administration says.

[whuknu]

forget ur right- i think that there should be sex ed in schools- but it should be passive- not pro premarital sex, not against it. in other words im not saying hand out condoms but im also not saying that they should say dont have sex. there is a way to do it passively.

[fuzzylampshade]

my school they teach us about sex they dont give out condoms but they teach about stds etc. they definitely dont encourage us to have sex and they would rather we refrain, but they want us to be educated because they know they cant stop us.

[WhoAmI]

i think they should mention not to have sex... they should say it flat out, not pressure tho and teach about STDs in order to maybe scare kids away from it.

[J&B]

Dude! No doubt sex should be more openly discussed at schools. In my school, my rabbi would bring up the issue and explain to us all the chemichal process that brings to pleasure... Once sex is not such a mistery it's also a little bit less tempting. So, educating (in the right way) could reduce pre-marital sex, which is something Jewish schools would like to happen.
I remember being a child and saying all of those words to my friends about their mothers. Once, my dad explained to me what "prostitute" meant. I never again said it to my friends. With the mistery gone it wasn't like I died to say it... I knew what it meant!

[WhoAmI]

actually i really like that j&b. good opinion

[forget]

um. just the thing is. sex is good. yea it's a mystery, forbidden fruit and all that, but in the end it just feels good. so you'd still wanna do it because of the pleasure you get, not because you don't know what it is.

[2face78]

wat makes it more appealing physically then masterbating? im curious as to ur opnion. i wouldnt no, just a guess taht its the same since the same orgasm occurs.
IM OUT

[elbubbniaevili]

yeah but half te pleasure would be knowing ur pleasuring someone else as well

[other]

wat makes it more appealing physically then masterbating? im curious as to ur opnion. i wouldnt no, just a guess taht its the same since the same orgasm occurs.
IM OUT

Um... It feels better :-), i'm not going to go into why, because i want this post to actuly get on the board, but from what i've been told and plain old logic it feels better.

p.s

I've never been in the situation, but as i've herad many times most guys only care about.... :-)

[WhoAmI]

yea it just feels good to know some1 else is sharing the experience and another body and passion and warmth and maybe its not all about the orgasm, its just a side effect...

[WhoAmI]

oh yea and pppl pleez respond to this or any other topics in this page b/c my name is the last everytime! i feel like an idiot

[J&B]

the reason why sex feels better than masturbation is the same reason that makes porn or even erotic thoughts feel good. it has to do with our imagination. the human, as part of the animal kingdom, has some instincts. one of these instincts is the sexual instinct. the sexual appetite. G-d put it in us so we would want to reproduce, so the human race would reproduce. i think this "appetite" has two parts. one is the desire to feel pleasure and the other part is desire, just desire. when a guy looks at a naked woman, he is not really having any physical pleasure, he is just feeling an increase in the desire for that woman or for sexual relations with that woman.
so when in actual intercourse, both desire and physical pleasure are being stimulated.
Just to bring this thread back to topic... Judaism understands that both aspects of sexual pleasure (physical and desire) are fake. they r mechanisms meant to drive us to reproduce. on the other hand, since our body does ask for sexual pleasure, not having it is also bad. so Judaism established in all of these issues a perfect balance, that could help the person not to be slave to his/her sexual instinct.

[lost33]

J&B very well written, i agree wiht wat u said bec i see the rules in judiasim comceroing desires and lust as beneficial. bec sure sex feels great and is extremely enjoyable but without some sort of structure or order we are just slaves to our deisres. we lose our freedom to our wants and desires, not our needs but our desires. this is a horrible way to live life, succumbing to every desire

[J&B]

We should be aware of why does it feel so great... Why did G-d want it to feel so great...

[jewish.charger]

ive had sex quite a bit, and not nessisarly with people i think im going to marry..im not proud. and i always wonder if G-D is frowning on me. but didnt He put sex in the world for a reason? sometimes i wonder if its to give life to future jewish children to become the mesiah or something. because someone has to give birth to that child. or was it an experiment to see what the jewish population would do with it?

[canadianblonde]

I think it"s definitely okay! we live in the 21st centure; we"re exposed to tons more than our parents and grandparents were ever exposed to, especially at such a young age. the way I see it waiting for the "right" or "perfect" partner or situation doesn"t make sense. if you think about it logically, if you wait for that perfection you"ll never live up to your own expectations, or your partner won"t live up to them. either way you"re going to regret your first time, and so having fun should be the point! sex should be a time when you enjoy yourself, and constantly planning or second guessing whether or not it"s going perfectly is unrealistic. and as for diseases and stuff, we"re all smart. we know to use protection or birth control or whatever, and we"re mature enough to figure out how to keep ourselves safe. to conclude, I say, why wait for perfection that isn"t going to come? have fun with your life! high schools supposed to be chill, so I think we should go and jam and do what we wanntt