Unimpressed

[Elvira]

Hmmm.... not sure I wanna be the first to post here, but here goes. I guess I just feel a little hollow inside.... I've been in Yeshiva my whole life.... and I still have no love for any of it.... no hate, just no love..... not sure if its judaism or the teachers or what.... not sure I care.... I guess I do, or I wouldn't be posting on this stupid board... or maybe I'm just curious to see how many other people are as numb as me. The truth is - I'd like to care... I'm just not sure I do...
:confused: (cool smilies)

[Smushey]

Elvira -
Maybe your difficulty is from a distaste for the boring sort of dry Judaism that a lot of my friends hated too. If it all sounds like it's dead, like ot's old and pointless to you now, then your teachers need a lot of work. And there are unfortunately not enough teachers who realize that. Judaism is supposed to be alive, vibrant and wonderful. But all too often words like "ritual" come in, and we all fall asleep.
There is no easy solution. But Pirkei Avot gives a suggestion: Aseh L'cha Rav, find a Rebbe. This means a person to teach from the heart, to give you an entirely focused way of viewing the whole world, as they used to say in NCSY, through Torah-colored glasses. Few schools have this kind of attention, but if you're lucky, or just look hard enough, there are usually a few teachers williing to do it. Often people find this in Israel - this is why so many people get turned on there, from the experience they lacked earlier and ddn't think they could get.

[raistlin]

Yeah, they are cool smilies.

Um, i've been thinking about this myself. I think I felt something similar, and i'm trying to remember when I started feeling that way. I didn't feel numb or hollow so much, more annoyed. I really disliked thw whole yeshiva/orthodox lifestyle. But I remember as a kid I thought it was fun. Any idea on what might have changed? in either of us?

[teen16]

But I remember as a kid I thought it was fun. Any idea on what might have changed? in either of us?

yo - first of all - I don't know who smushey is - but it sounds like an adult to me. thanks for the torah lesson dude. but I think you're missing the point. and if you are an adult - you don't belong here, ok?

Elvira - I'm down with what your saying - you too raistlin. I just think that as kids we were simple in what felt good to us. but as soon as we began to be even a little sophisticated, we realized that what we were learning wasn't.

I don't know why our teachers can't get it, or our rabbis. stop trying to wow us intellectually. that's not where the hollow point is. if we seem dead to you, then stop trying to argue us back to life. try some electric paddles - give us something with some high voltage.

btw, check out my post under the feature article (nice one by you too, raistlin. and yo, smushey - if yer just some girl or dude who like to quote torah, sorry for the dis.)

[Tigger5741]

Ok, the problem is that some (and i stress some) rabbis think that this is all cut and dried and that Judaism is all about how long skirts are. there are however some (unfortunately not enough) rabbis who know better. so truthfully, smushey may have a point, there are rabbis or teachers in the schools who can and will help us through our reall life problems, the problem is finding these adults. i'm lucky, i found one of these rabbis in my high school, he saved me from completely destroyoing my life, we need more like him. another part of the problem is that they think the answer is always found in Torah, and that's not always the case, learning more will not increase someone's love for Judaism, making Judasim exciting and applicaple to real life could help ease the problem of boredom that we suffer with, unfortyunately all they do is add more chumash classes.

[airspace]

yeah, I'm just completely turned off to it all cos it's been shoved down my throat all my life. and to be frank, most of the rabbis ive met have been pretentious, money hungry ********.

[raistlin]

I'd love some high voltage too. that would be great and invigorating and deep and everything else Teen16 and others mentioned. But once it's over, what's left? I mean it feels great but it ends, you know? like a good movie. Only a little while after a really good movie ends I'm kind of on a down. It seems like either we look for another fun time, or if we really liked the Jewish stuff then we pursue that. I'd like to think my life is more than just looking for one high voltage session after another. (see the feature article - it makes some great points) So what's left, Judaism? If we're not impressed with arguments, or philosophy or halacha or any of that stuff, then like you (Teen16) said, we see no reason to commit ourselves (and it's a big commitment, seems to me).
Tigger - what's so great about it?

[Smushey]

I'm not offended, don't worry. Though I'm older than you probably are, I'm still young enough to wince when someone calls me an adult - though I waas known as "The Old Man" in hogh school and "Grampa" in Israel. (More seriously, there are a few college and adult people here who remember the teen issues and are trying to give a little experienced advice.)
Now that you make it more clear, I see why my post wasn't valuable. The point is that everyone feels that way at some point, and does need that kick-start, that high voltage to the soul. For me, it was NCSY and then Israel, and now I can sustain it on my own. My comment about Pirkei Avot really means that getting you to the level when the excitement doesn't require being at a Shabbaton (and the most important thing is keeping it going after the Shabbaton ends) usually requires a really good and influential teacher.
Again, sorry for my "stiff" writing style. I'm an English major.

[Smushey]

yeah, I'm just completely turned off to it all cos it's been shoved down my throat all my life. and to be frank, most of the rabbis ive met have been pretentious, money hungry ********.
Too many people get turned off because they judge the religion by those who practice it, and let's be honest, a lot of Jews aren't doing it right. That doesn't mean its no good, just that you haven't found the right style or teacher yet. Please believe those who tell you, they speak from experience: its out there. Don't stop looking. Don't get discouraged. I know its tough - believe me, I know - but when you do find that teacher or that inspiring idea, it will have been worth the struggle.

[raistlin]

Smushey,

I see that you mean well, but you've hit on a catch-22. You keep telling us that "it's out there," all we have to do is keep looking, keep trying. You are so sure we'll find it because you and your friends did. Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but your encouragement and assurance is not enough to push us into action, no matter how old (or young) you are. We need something invigorating now, to wake us up, Jewish or otherwise. So how do we get this? we have to look for it. But we don't have the desire or impetus to do so. So we need some inspiration. But how do we get it? We have to search for it. etc etc etc.
Just because you found the right person does not guarantee that others will. And if high schools are full of people teaching how to do Judaism properly and don't do so themselve, how hypocritical is that? Why don't they get red of the bad apples and get people who should be teaching in the classrooms?

[Elvira]

wow - thanks everyone for responding... home sick today... cool to logon and find all this...

it is really nice that there are so many other people out there thinking about this stuff... its true about teachers... i think its true about the gap that was spoken about last night... the panel spoke about the gap that we all feel inside, that we wanna fill, but don't know how... one thing I think, reading all these posts, and listening to the guys and girls who got up last night...

why can't we learn what the torah has to say about sex? why can't we learn what the torah has to say about the beauty of the opposite sex, rather than to stay away, which is just more tempting and leads us to conclude that we'll have to decide on our own anyway... do our teachers and parents really prefer that? i mean, if i learnt from the torah how beautiful relationships could be, how to appreciate what is amazing about men and women and what we bring to each other... i wouldn't be more tempted...i'd have more respect and value... now my relationships are jsut my security blankets... and yeah, i find validation in physical contact.

i want to believe that the torah has so much to say to me...that it has answers and that it really is that deep... what could be cooler than being born into the deepest truth in the world? but i don't believe that. because nothing i learn in school tells me that... and there is no standard for who teaches me... lets face it... the community cares more about giving some rabbis jobs than it does about the 50 students he'll never reach...

wow... i want to care so badly... i gotta go... too much...

[Smushey]

Raistlin -
Simply put, you are absolutely right. But that doesn't mean that I'm not right also. Whn you come doewn to it, there are only two things that really require a blind faith, that no one will be able to use arguments to convnce you of: there is a God, and that His Torah is worth pursuing. If you don't want to pursue it, that great teacher or frined may be right in front of you and you'll never know it. My point was that for those who want to look, who feel that it's worth spending effort on, they will find it - eventually. It's just one of the things you have to have faith in. That answer sucks, I know, but saying "I'm too lazy to look" isn't real legit either. No one can make you care.

[eminem]

yo smushy ya wana shut the ......... up cuz ur pissin every on off quit the stupid torah qoute ur like 20 go get married u dont need to sit heer and start spewing like a g*d dam sykologist dude take a chill pill

[eminem]

yo u people r so stupid if u wana crap about this stuff talk to ur sykologist none of these people r gana help u hahahaah

[teen16]

yo eminem - ur so smart so what do u think? ez 2 rag... but u gotta put up or shut up.

[shufleye]

Ok, this is the administrator here. need to remind people of a few rules:

More seriously, there are a few college and adult people here who remember the teen issues and are trying to give a little experienced advice


Smushey - Sorry, NO GO! This is a teen2teen community. not an "older-people-with-experience-educate-younger-people" forum. I can't tell from your post if you're still a teen - and since you might be, even in early college, I'm letting you stay on - for now. But you gotta keep your posts to yourself. You can freely share your opinions here - but DON'T lecture.


Also, note to Eminem. Glad you're on the boards - its clear that you're real. But keep it civil, k?

[Bongo_Dude]

OK so here goes. I dont know if this is going to help nething, but I just felt that the love of Judaism is just something that comes on its own. for example, this past Yom Kippur I had an incredible spiritual experience and really felt as if I were praying for my life (believe it or not, I believe it and thats all that counts). That just came to me - it wasnt a result of my school (although that has definitely been conducive to a love of Judaism) or NCSY (which gave me access to a lot of great role models). I just learned in school today that spiritual experiences are sent by G-d when He feels that it is needed for the person. I know that sounds dull because most people who have posted feel they need it, but if what I just wrote is true, then it will come at the right time (k, a little to philisophical - I'll try to lay off a little. Ummm...I guess I'm trying to say that you shouldnt let a lack of love turn you away. If you stop believing and living as a Jew then you have no chance of getting closer to Judaism or G-d.

Btw, Eminem, i think your attitude was a little harsh and mebbe you should keep feelings like that to yourself.

- bongo dude

[cc27]

"We need something invigorating now, to wake us up, Jewish or otherwise. So how do we get this? we have to look for it. But we don't have the desire or impetus to do so. So we need some inspiration. But how do we get it? We have to search for it. etc etc etc. "

sorry if this also sounds a bit stiff- although I am not in college/an english major etc- im in highschool too. That said- I hate to be blunt but- the problem sometimes with all us teens is that we all say we're turned off- and if some teacher/advisors/whatever would just do something exciting-invigorating-inspiring-electrifying-contriversial, -THEN we would be all happy and clear on life and willingly run back to Torah. So- you're basically saying- you Want to understand life/judaism, better, right? you Want an appreciation for torah, you're just not getting it?
If you've got a craving for a good snack- do you wait all day for your mom to perchance say "honey, some milk and cookies?", or do you go raid the fridge/pantry/ grocery store as soon as you can? If you don't see anything to appetizing on one shelf/isle, wouldn't you just go onto the next one?
ok- reality check- if we say we really want that inspiration- really really- wouldnt it make sense to go to every venue to find it? instead of just walking around looking for inspiration and talking about how there is none- why dont we badger our rabbis/teachers for the answers we need= until we get them, until we find someone who'll give us the time and encouragement we're looking for and that we (really) need. They REALLy are out there (sorry that phrase cliche by now)- theres at least 2 or 3 in Every yeshiva highschool- at least that i know of in B.C.- ask friends/older schoolmates- who they are.
We, and our questions are definately being ignored and pushed aside by many people- but not everyone. But maybe we should make sure that WE aren't the ones ignoring ourselves and our needs- maybe we can take control of our own life and do as much as we can to help ourselves.- GL!

[raistlin]

to Smushey and cc27-
Both of you make a fair and valid point. But I never said I was lazy or that I don't really want it. But who's responisiblity is it to educate me? Is it mine? I couldn't even cross the street on my own till last year! :)
But seriously, folks, I don't need the responsibility of teaching or finding out for myself stuff I need to or should know. Frankly I don't think I could live up to it because of other stuff in life.
The fact is that it is the school's responsibility to educate me - not mine. That is their job, that is what they are getting paid for, that is what they went to school and supposedly got trained for, and that is what they make time (that oh so precious commodity) for. I have a million other things to do. If there are only 2 or 3 rabbis worth their spit in the local high school and I need to find them, that is a problem!
I'm not ignoring myself, I think about this stuff all the time. . .

[Bongo_Dude]

wow cc27 that was really nice. I completely agree. Inspiration, as I said before, is something that comes when G-d intends it to come. However, He isnt going to do all the work on His own so I think that people should definitely try to find that inspiration and make their lives more conducive to it. The best inspiration is a combination of your own effort with some occurence in your life. As the Romans said (so corny) "Carpe Diem" (lit. sieze the day) - in my context, go out and make yourself ready or even seek inspiration, and it will hopefully come.

- Bongo Dude

[Bongo_Dude]

who's responisiblity is it to educate me? Is it mine? I couldn't even cross the street on my own till last year! :)
But seriously, folks, I don't need the responsibility of teaching or finding out for myself stuff I need to or should know. Frankly I don't think I could live up to it because of other stuff in life.
The fact is that it is the school's responsibility to educate me - not mine.


I think that if you just wait for someone to just inspire you it will (probably) never come. Yes, that inspiration s hould come from the outside, but you need to be willing to work for it. I wrote more in the other thread - if u can, look there.

- B.D.

[raistlin]

"Yes, that inspiration s hould come from the outside, but you need to be willing to work for it."
-BD

No, Bongo_Dude. I shouldn't have to work for it on top of everything else I have to do. I should be open to listening to it and thinking about it. And that I am. I waiting for them to say something but I'm getting nothing.

[Bongo_Dude]

If you're not willing to work for it, and you don't make it known that you're listening, then why should they say anything?? They need to know you want inspiration, and one major way to inform them is to search for it. At least put effort into letting them know that you have the desire. Don;t just sit and wait for things to happen. "Ein Somchin Al Ha'Nes"-->"You can't rely on a miracle"-->you have to work to the best of your ability for something to happen, not wait for it to come to you. It won;t be fed to you on a silver spoon, you have to earn it

- B.D.

[raistlin]

helOOOOOOOOO!

That's why we're here, isn't it? To show them that there's something we're missing and we'd like to know what it is. I've tried starting discussion in school, but they all fizzle out with that magical word the teacher says, "Okay." Okay, let's move on, to something more important like ibn ezra. Either that or the students aren't mature enough. To tell the truth, that's something I have no control over - the maturity level of those in my class. Maybe if we could have like one on ones, or small group discussion about topics that bother us, we could actually get somewhere.

But come on, BD, they know we're looking for inspiration. Either there's a lack supply, or a lack of motivation to fill the demand, on the teachers'/administrators'/schools' parts.

It could also be that they judge us bu the least mature among us. Maybe those are the ones who stand out in their heads so they think that we're all like that, and that we're not mature enough to handle anything deep or are thinking about anything serious.

Well, they're wrong.

[Bongo_Dude]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Before I though you were trying to say that if you just sat around you would be inspired. I see that you are more upset with the ispire"ers" and not focusing on the inspire"ees". Now I see we were arguing about different things (mai pligi). Maybe you need to have more of a one on one thing with your teachers so they see that you are mature enough to deal with it and will guide you. I know that I get better results when I talk to teachers after class or during lunch. Give it a shot. Chag Smeach

- B.D.

[kiyara]

bongo dude- i hear what your saying, and i feel like saying this bit of personal truth out here.
so many of us say we dont really have motivation, inherent spirituality, etc, but we would like for some great teacher/rabbi to give us something high voltage, inspirational. And then you say, well if you really want to be inspired and feel judaism, you would try to get that inspiration any way you could. well you know what? i bet im not the only one who feels this way:
I do not want to be inspired by someone/something to love judaism. I dont even have that motivation. what i truthfully want is this: I want to want to be inspired and motivated. I wish i wanted that, but when it comes down to it, its just easier to not wash and bench when eating a sandwich, and not feel guily about it. this is a problem, and sometimes i feel kind of bad and like i cant face God, but somehow i still continue on my way, doing some but not all mityzvot.

[Bongo_Dude]

Of course you continue on your way - G-d hasnt struck you with lightning yet. Seriously though, iof course it easier not to do thigns, but the power of judaism is that it improves and strengthens you by making you overcome your human weaknesses and doing something you dont logically have to do. Then you can apply that will to the rest of your life. Sure, when I was younger I had no desire to be more observant, but as I have done so, mostly of my own volition, I have noticed myself becoming a better person just "stam" and becoming a stronger person. You do "have" to do the mitzvot because HaShem told you to, but whether or not that means anything is up to you. You have the choice to do what you want, but religion is there for a reason, and maybe if you give it a shot, it will do something for you.

- B.D.

[kiyara]

thanks. (seriously)

you sound like you speak from experience, and giving me a glimpse into your insight would help.

And to my defense, I am religious. I beleive in God and do mitzvot and go to shul on my own initiative and all that. I just don't really have the real deep feeling most of the time.

[Bongo_Dude]

Yea thank G-d I speak from experience. I had a yom kippur two years ago (see earlier this post where I wrote about it) that really turned a lot around. Since then, i just feel like I've been growing as time goes on and it really has improved my life.

I dont know what you are defending. I dont think I was accusing u of nething. The deep thing should come at some point. Maybe ull ust be davening and somehow it will dawn on you that you are praying to the Being that has your life in His control. I don't know - just dont give up on anything. It all takes time.

- B.D.