Dont Make Us Daven

[CptCatz]

this may not be such a big deal in some schools and even in mine its not such a big deal but its a little pet peeve of mine. it really pisses me off when a rabbi will lecture me about not davening and "make" me daven. im not athiest but im not sure if i believe in god just yet (but i do go to a modern orthodox hs). when you sit in davening and just stare into space and a rabbi comes over to you and tells you to look in your siddur or to start moving your mouth or any other of the bs, it really gets me mad. i think that when they do that, the rabbi partially lowers his belief in god. who are they to make us speak words that we have no idea what they mean to someone that we have never seen before. in my opinion, davening should be special for each person. the rabbi should care about his prayers and each student should care about his own prayers. if its just thinking about thanking god or if its saying a little sentance in english that thanks god, its each person's idea of communicating to god. i think the rabbi has no right to tell me how to communicate with god and has no right to MAKE me daven. both ways, i wont daven. if i have my siddur closed and then a rabbi tells me to open it, that wont make a differance. i just wish that they would lay off a little. thats my rant, you guys can give your opinions on this.

[yao1124]

ya i feel the same way and to add to that if its suppsoe to be special then you should be allowed to make up your own words whenevr you want and not specifically what the rabbis of a long time ago say to pray and what times. I feel that if i want to ask god for sumtin ill ask him when i want not when a rabbi that lived a thousand years a go wants.

[kiyara]

I agree. In my elementary school it was really annoying how the teachers would spend all our our and their davening time loudly shushing people, forcing them to open siddurim, etc. It s soo counterproductive. Luckily, now in high school we are allowed to leave, we are strongly encouraged/forced to go into the bet knesset and not hang out in the halls, and we are politely and minimally shushed when talking. Its a big debate though. The funny thing is, now i daven much less than i did in elementary, but Im not sure if its related to that. I just dont feel motivation right now, but out of habit and guilt i daven shma and shmonah esrei. well see.

I totally agree with you about how its hard to say prayers made by rabbis so long ago, with such irrelevant wording.

[Mr. X]

I agree with this rant and will tell you the solution I found to it. I'll stand when everybody is standing, and I'll sit when everybody is sitting. I'll also say something once in a while, but it won't be from out of the siddur. I agree with the fact that if I want to connect to God, it won't be through the words of Rabbi's from way back in the day. I open up saying "Hey God, it's me, we've got some alone time now." Then I go on and find the positives in my life, list them, and thank God for each of them individually, then I find the negatives in my life, list them, and ask God for help in all of them individually. Then I'll give a little thank you to God go giving me some time alone with Him, and then I finish. I started doing that because I realized I was wasting an hour of my day sitting around in prayers. Now at least I get to vent a bit, get some stuff out, and feel pretty good about things in general. By me doing my little list, I went from not participating and being told to participate to make it seem like I'm participating in their prayer, while I found my own connection to God.

[CptCatz]

I open up saying "Hey God, it's me, we've got some alone time now." Then I go on and find the positives in my life, list them, and thank God for each of them individually, then I find the negatives in my life, list them, and ask God for help in all of them individually. Then I'll give a little thank you to God go giving me some time alone with Him, and then I finish.

thats great! that is how it should be. i just wish the rabbis can see this and let us do this and not the old boring stuff we do 3 times a day. praying should be a personal thing.

[tiger]

I never though anyone felt the same way. I cant stand it when my teachers go out of therir way to mke me daven. It makes me insane!!!Something about those words in the siddur just dont reach out to me. Even if i read them(the prayers) in english i still am not feeling them. I feel really bad though-- i would like to understand i just cant get there Every day i do the same as every1 else--- stand p sit down stand up sit down..... I just wish it meant more to me!! Any adivce?? but NO PREACHING PLEASE!!!!

[kiyara]

I know!! Like there'll always be a teacher during some tehillim or bracha lishlom hamedina(israel) that'll scold "stand up, dont you care about israel?" I hate that. Of course, I love Israel with all my heart, but me standing to words that are metaphoric and ancient doesn't show my love so well.

I didn't know there were other people who also feel a real lack of connection with the words in the siddur. like even in shmoneh esrei the only thing i can have kavanah and personal feelings in is shma koleinu but i feel guilty about that, like I only ask God for things and dont thank him. But the truth is, I kind of only feel kavanah to ask Him for things. I feel kavanah and want to thank Him after something good has happened, and I do, but when its tefillah time - the thanking....well, theres kind of nothing I really feel like thanking him for at like 8 in the morning.

(i know....for making me wake up healthy warm, etc...)

[Confuzedinlimbo]

when a Rabbi/ teacher tells you to open your siddur it's because. just sitting there isn't just saying you don't want to be here, it's shoving it in their faces. And some people might see that as rude or offensive. The other stuff I find inexcuseable.
I guess they figure that by moving your lips that it will give you some good mitzvot, but that's as bad as a christian prist saying he belives in Jeasus then taking sexual advantage of a young girl. It's so superficial, I can't stand it. What, by just going through the motions you're a good person??
You shouldn't listen to them. Don't listen to what anybody tells you about Judaism, just block them out so you can form your own opinion. It's hard because your whole view on Judaism is how it's presented to you, but if you're able to open your mind and compare Judaism, to everything and think of the torah not as you were taught, but as a new storybook, it becomes excting and (no gaurentees but...) you might be pleasantly surprised, because Judaism really can be a beautiful religion.

~confuzed in limbo~ your starchild~

[Digital Messiah]

i agree with the rant, i will add 2 things.
i think rabbis should not tell you anything in davening, but if you start talking while other are actually trying to daven then thats not fair. dont daven, they shouldnt care, maybe have a series of classes on what davening is all about?
2nd thing is grading davening, it happened to me all through elementary school and i dont get it, alot of hs dont grade davening but some still do.(how can a few rabbis daven every day and also check everyone to know what grade he/she deserves? its ludacris.

[raistlin]

"It's hard because your whole view on Judaism is how it's presented to you, but if you're able to open your mind and compare Judaism, to everything and think of the torah not as you were taught, but as a new storybook, it becomes excting"
-Confuzedinlimbo

ok, so how do i know if I'm able to open my mind? How do I know if and when it's open? ranting is great, and i'd join in if a)i had the time and b) had something substantial to add but pretty much all the bases have been covered. how's about something practical?

[kiyara]

interesting stuff you guys said. by the way ludacris is the rapper - the word is ludicrous. And if it was possible to clear your mind and think about Judaism, then frankly I dont think I would be so into it, but its impossible because weve been brought up that way, we are totally in that environment, etc.

And how can you grade davening???!! Thats like the chassidishe yeshivas these days.

[CptCatz]

yeah i agree about the talking during davening thing, thats totally disrespectful to the other people that want to daven, i RARELY ever talk, i never start a convo, just sometimes if someone talks to me. but even the rabbis do this. at least in my school if someone is talking, a rabbi will raise their voice and shout "mr. so and so, stop talking now!" and that just makes more of a disruption. and grading davening is just worse.

[Confuzedinlimbo]

What's not practical about it? I'm just saying that if you give it a chance alot of things that might have seemed unrealistic and boring to you before might become exciting. It wirks for me so I just decided to suggest it.

~confuzed in limbo~ your starchild~

[tiger]

RANT: today i tried so hard to behave during davening. I said all the owrds and didnt talk to anyone....MY TEACHERS MADE FUN OF ME!!! THEY WERE LIKE ARE YOU SICK OR SOMETHIN!! oNE OF MY TEACHERS ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO GO LIE DOWN!!!
THEY DIDNT EVEN TRY TO SEE THAT I MIGHT HAVE ACTALLY TRIED!!
ANOTHER THING-- WHAT ABOUT THE TEACHERS THAT TELL YOU TO SHUT UP AND THEN GO AND TALK AMONGST THEM SELVES!!! CAN YOU SAY HYPOCRIT???

[Bongo_Dude]

Wow this rant is full of posts and I'm not sure where to start. In advance, if I offend anyone it is completely unintentional - I'm just trying to express my opinion.

I basically agree and disagree (hows that for annoying) with the things that have been said. I completely agree with the fact that davening (lit. saying the words) shouldnt be forced. I do think that it is important as a yeshiva to make kids attend davening and behave. It shows their view on Judaism and the importance they hold to it, and, like it or not, the laws of the Rabbis are almost as binding as the laws of G-d. Prayer is an important concept in Judaism, and I think that unless you find meaning in the traditional prayers you will dislike davening. Not to say that you shouldnt say them - it is a halacha and I'm not going to contradict it. However, the suggestion of saying your own prayers is an amazing idea, and one that I have followed for a long time now and which makes davening meaningful to me. I do say all the traditional prayers - my method of giving them meaning is to really concentrate on the meaning and to add in my little supplements whenever I want. Grading davening is ridiculous - it is a personal thing and as long as you don't disrupt they have no right to say anything about it.

Here are some suggestions to help make prayer more meaningful:

1) Say the traditional prayers in english - the translation can have meaning from you, and eventually go back to hebrew - it really sounds a lot nicer.

2) Start with your own prayers and then look over the traditional prayers - even if you don't want to say them see them and maybe you will find meaning.

3) If nothing else, just say something to yourself to maintain a connection with G-d

Hope they help

- B.D.

[Confuzedinlimbo]

How can you think it's right that they make you daven? If you really want to feel true kavaneh forcing it on you (speaking personally and out of experence-seeing my friends do it all the time) want to make you push away more.There are other ways to gain respect and really feel connected when you daven, and I think that you need to skip davening and learn to respect other aspects of the religion before committing to saying meaningless words at 8:00 in the morning. Of course you're going to hate it! You need to know the beauty behind the religion first before going through all the demanding requirements. That's one of the biggest mistakes yeshiva's make today.

~confuzed in limbo~ your starchild~

[Bongo_Dude]

I don't know if you're entirely correct. You can't skip davening - even if you have a meaningless observance you need some form of observance. There is no possibility of skipping a mtzvah - strict observance of mitzvot is the framework of Judaism. I do agree that yeshivot don't allow people to appreciate the beauty of Judaism outright unless you are receptive to it, and that is important, but the requirements of the religion are a part of its beauty and you can't ignore them in any case

- B.D.

[TheBlueGreenMystery]

thats great! that is how it should be. i just wish the rabbis can see this and let us do this and not the old boring stuff we do 3 times a day. praying should be a personal thing.
yes, it shoudl be personal. but not THAT personal. i think the reason is as follows: you can ask or say anything personal at the end of the shmoneh esreh, but the reason we have to say all the other stuff is also so that we make sure we praise god enough, and because we dont want god to treat us differently so we all have the same basic prayer. this way god doesnt say (in whatever sense he "says") "look at this person, he/she davened for five minutes, while this other person davened for 30 min. the other persons davening was also more beautiful. why cant this person's also be?" and not help us out b/c of it. so although it is personal, we still need to say the other stuff.

[sweetgirl12237]

i went through a tough time my sophmore yr and my principal basically told me i had to daven bc thats what was expected of me and thats the way he holds and i HAVE to do what he syas. i flipped out and totally wnet of the other side and refused to do anything... all i did in school was got up when everyone else did and sat when they did so i wouldnt have to talk to him nymore... then about half way through my sophmore yr i was talking to one of my teachers and she told me that it was ok not to daven adn that i shoudl do what i was comfortable with... that changed my perspective of everything. i realized that he was wrong to try and force me but her beign open and saying i didnt have to and to go at my own pace actually helped me. i spoek to her more and she told me to basically forget the words and talk to god from my heart.. jsut talk.. i could yell at him adn "curse" him out if i so desire.. but only when i was comfortable doing so.. this more than anythign brought me closer than any teachr forcing me to do somethign i dont want to do... force never works- talkign does

[the old man]

only thing i found that got me at all going was the amidah -- i took one bracha and spent the whole time i was supposed to be saying other stuff and focused on it and how it workd in my life. i had an uncle who was sick and the refa'aynu one started to mean something. can't say that all 19 have relevance biut masybe someday...

[TheBlueGreenMystery]

umm i think she was right about everything except for the curse out part... i mean, its still god ur dealing with isnt it? so do whatever you want, except curse god out....

[Bongo_Dude]

BlueGreen, you are my kind of guy(/girl?) I totally agree with you. The format of davening is important, as is making it personal. G-d should be treated with respect, being the omniscient being that He is, but on the flip side you should try to personify Him to some extent and try to talk to him as you would to a person.

- B.D.

[TheBlueGreenMystery]

yea im a guy lol.

[Bongo_Dude]

hehe, good guess B.D. (b/c i cant write my real name).

[sweetgirl12237]

ok so curse wasnt exactly the right word.. now i feel liek i have to defend what i said. but i what i said made sense. bd, and bluegreen, its not that i dotn treat god with respect, so i guess curse wasnt teh right word.. but it did get a point across...

[Bongo_Dude]

well what point are you trying to get across? If you mean complain strongly, thats a different story, but otherwise I dont know what ur trying to say

- B.D.

[TheBlueGreenMystery]

ditto to bongo

[Confuzedinlimbo]

Yea, but alot of people lose faith quickly. It's important to keep faith and just going wth what you belive in because if you're untrue to yourself it can mess you up and it will bite you back in the end.

[Spider-Man]

Don't ya just hate when a Rabbi comes up to you if you don't move your lips? I mean, this one time, the principal came up to me and asked me to move my lips. I said, "I'm reading in English." He said I should move my lips anyway.

Now I ask you this: Why? Why move my lips? What does it accomplish? I'v heard people say you move your lips so God can hear you. :eek:That's gotta be the most retarded thing I ever heard. The "guy" can create or distroy the entire universe in a time frame we can't comprehend, and your tellin' me he can't read my mind?

How about this idea: If you move your lips, doesn't that seem like you'redehrading God? Doesn't it seem as if you're saying "he's" not as powerful as we think?

Rabbi's who make us move our lips, I got one word for you: Blasphemy.

You Rabbis may think you are all powerful, but you can't make me move my lips. And you never will.

That is, until I get a good reason to move my lips.

-Spidey out.

[Mr. X]

I find it a lot easier to do everything in my mind. Which is why actually SAYING it is better. We have to give an extra effort to actually open our mouths to say the words, which shows that we care more. Thats why we should speak our prayers instead of think them, give the extra effort, show you care. You're talking to God, you might as well show Him you care. Of course I'm being a big hypocrite b/c I barely daven from the siddur and if I do I usually just think it.

[Bongo_Dude]

Also, part of the mitzvah of prayer is actually hearing urself say the words, in whatever language ur saying them in. Its fine if u say it in english, but try to say it outloud, not loud enough for other people to hear, only for yourself. Its definitely preferred - I'm not sure if its obligatory or not (but I think it is)

- B.D.

[Spider-Man]

Part of the mitzvah is to hear myself say the words, huh? I do. In my head.

And why is it a mitzvah to say the words aloud? Until I can get 5 good reasons to say the words, I'm not doin' it.

-Spidey out.

[Mr. X]

First of all saying you need 5 reasons or you won't do it is kinda ignorant if you ask me. You're pretty much saying you won't accept something unless you have a bunch of reasons. Usually one good answer should help. I told you, it shows that you're giving more effort if you actually say it. More effort = more caring. Its good to show you care when you pray.

[Bongo_Dude]

ditto to that - it does take more concentration to say them out loud, and u end up thinking more about what ur saying. thats another reason for u

[i got issues]

bongo dude, i dont want this to be an attack but please, if you are just going to say ditto to that, please dont post. It really excites me when i see a new post and then it says ditto to that like all the time. So please dont post any more of that .

[kiyara]

yea lol i also get exited when i see a new post - but hey, this is a discussion board, not an obsession, so i think its fine for him to say his opinion, even if someone has alreasdy expressed it.

[Tigger5741]

The big problem with Davening is that it's never REALLY explained. It's just something you are told to do. there is an exercise i practice when i work with little kids, and i think it works, and could even be re worked to work in ollder grades. sometimes when we are daving or before or at some point, i sit down with the kids and we talk about how davening is suppose to be about thanking, praising and asking God for something, and then each child says thank you Hashem for something, says something nice about Hashem and asks Him for something. this also seems to make them apprecaite Davening a little more. Davening is supposed to be personal, and this makes the experience more personal. like i said, this is an exercise for young kids, but is there any way to implement it for older kids?

[jesusboy]

i agree i hate wen a rabbi will tel me to daven esspecielly wen i dont give a crape about judiesm at all. who is he to tell me how n wen to talk to hashem ill do it in my time n in my way

[lost33]

the whole point of davening is that no human being has the will power or ability to be able to express himslef evryday three times a day eloquently to their Creator the way davening allows us. its close minded to say that You will thank G-d when You feel like it and in the way You want to, basiclly by saying this ur denying the power of G-d, for u are putting yourself and your petty feelings before your devotion to G-d.

[jesusboy]

if god is so powefull then why is my life f**ked up

[sweetgirl12237]

those who help themselves... get helped...

[CptCatz]

those who help themselves... get helped...
thats complete bull****. those who help themselves are aleady getting helped so they wont notice the help from god. its just a sorry excuse for people to make up when they want to see help from god.

[sweetgirl12237]

ok, i completely agree with u.. btu on the flip side- its also an excuse that ppl can use when they feel that they are being "shafted" by life... it can go either way.