Let the arabs win

[CptCatz]

i know i may not get a lot of support here but this is my point of view. we (israelies) are fighting a war with the palistinians over the land of israel. so far they are winning in terms of bloodshed. israel is not fighting back. my veiws are, if people are dieing in a land and you are not fighting back, get out of there. you may say they are fighting back but blowing up an empty building doesnt harm the palistinians. they have killed hundreds and hundreds of innocent israelies and all we do is blow up empty buildings in retaliation? thats not enough. we have to stoop to their level and kill their innocent people. of course they shouldnt do that but if it comes down to it, its just getting them back at their own game. its either that or just give them the land they want. is it really worth it for your fellow jews to be killed every day? it seems like these days with all the zionistics and all the zion groups, that people care more about a piece of land than human lives. thats not how it should be. they should either get out of their or fight back. this has been going on for litterally thousands of years and it has to stop. its not worth all the violence. this is just my opinion, feel free to share yours.

[kiyara]

I hear your point, and the land vs. human lives is a real issue, but I dont think leaving now, realistically would do anyone any good. Except for the "evildoers!" terrorists. What we have to do is some serious damage, some major bomb, that may kill many civilians, buty also many terrorist. the israelis have good intelligence-use it!!!

[Bongo_Dude]

Life is politics - Israel can't just do whatever it wants. Also, the land is worth the lives - without israel, Judaism cannot survive in the modern world. Israel is a haven for Jews, and on top of that has religious importance. How can we give that up?? Israel is fighting back as best they can but the only way this war is going to be won is through education. When 80% of palestinian children want to kill JEWS, then the only way to stop that is to prevent them from being taught that. Thats my opinion

- B.D.

[sweetgirl12237]

so ur saying that we shoudl jsut stoop down to their level and kill their innocent ppl also. listen, do u think that our "silent protests" of living in the west bank and settlements dont piss them off? we should jsut pick everything up and leave? u started out by sayign that and then ended up saying that we cant leave.. so B.D. what is? r u for or against staying in there? how mnay countless ppl die for OUR land? if you ask any family memebers of victims of bombings they will tell u that they wont leave. their loved ones died for a land they loved and by leavign then the arabs have gotten eveyrhting they wanted and all our our innocent ppl have died "for nothing"... im not saying i agree with everything that they say but can u honestly say that u woudl be ok with moving out of israel and giving it back?

[Bongo_Dude]

I never said that we should leave - if I had to go there and fight myself I would. cptcatz said that we should leave, and I totally disagree with him/her. the west bank is ours - we won it in war, and thats just how things work. The fact that they still live there is only because it is impractical to move them all out (and no arab country wants them - wonder why...). I don't think we can leave, because giving up Eretz Yisrael would be a catashtrophe for the Jewish people as a whole

- B.D.

[CptCatz]

israel is not worth jewish lives. how can you say without israel, Judaism cannot survive in the modern world? i think it would be pretty darn hard for judaism to survive without jews. sweetgirl, yes, i do think we should stoop to their level. we need to show them what they are doing to us. they will never stop unless we either give them what they want or we get them out of there. the only way to get them out of there is by force and killing innocent lives may be the only forceful way to get them out. if they dont leave, they will keep killing us and no jewish lives are worth a piece of land, no matter how much you love israel.

[Confuzedinlimbo]

one thing we can all do to help is join the israeli army. I've always wanted to be in the air force and i knowit's hard but i think i can do it. i need to do it, i've been wanting thins all my life. We need more religous people in the army.
We can't give up because we would be lost, we're small but one of the main religions today.
How long do you think people will keep paying attention to us and forming alliences with us and protecting us when we don't even have a state?
I see from most of the posts from everyone out there that religous spirit is already dwindling and many have begun to assimilate. If we give up, how long will we last?

~confuzed in limbo~your starchild~

[sweetgirl12237]

israel wont last if we give up on it.. oh btw confuzed- being religious in the israel army is extremly hard... good luck! and kol hakavod!! i wish i could do that!! thats y it is so important to go to rallies and show our support for the state of israel adn all that give their lives for its freedom.
go to more rallies, show your support, be proud you are jewish and israel is our home- we fought for it in 67, and we can lost it in a sec.. dont forget that!

[SuperSaiyan3]

LET THE ARABS WIN.....i am joining the israeli army in the near future.......to preserve what we believe in we should be able to risk human lives if need be to achieve what was really necesary to accomplish......going to rallies doesnt mean anything if you dont back it up.....nobody backs up what they say.....there are people who pretend to be zionistic because its their excuse to make violent remarks about something withouth seeming like a total and complete psycho.....well heres some news for you.....saying your zionistic because you go to rallies is worthless garbage.....go to israel for trips....there are so many missions you can go on.....afraid of dying while in israel....then stay in your house all day untill you rot because you have the same amount of chance of choking and dying on your lunch as you have dying in israel.....and if your so afraid to die you then you shouldnt have been born in the first place

[Confuzedinlimbo]

"If you're so afraid to die then you shouldn't have been born in the first place."-Super Saiyan3

I agree. there's enough wusses in this world. And it's a big honor to die for what you belive in. But I don't belive people pretend to be zionistic just to rag on somebody, and being at rallies doesn't make you a true zionist but it definatly does help, anything helps.

~Confuzed in limbo~ your starchild~

[i got issues]

cptcatz, i think you are completely missing the point and such a simple issue is flying right over your head. Israel was established after the holocaust. As soon and even efore it was formally announced as a country all of the persecuted jews started to come to israel. It was a place where the peolpe in charge would persecute you, and you would be able to be jewish. It was a reassurance to the european jews that the whole world wasnt against them. Here, you are saying that jewery would survive without an israel but now, many jews only connect with one thing, israel because it is a reassurance to them that no matter where they live (america, france, europe, russia, asia) there is a place alway siwlling to accept them despite the antisemitism in their conutry.

[Bongo_Dude]

Thats why we can;t give up and why we have to keep fighting. There is so much emotional and religious connection between Jews and Eretz Yisrael - how can we let that go??''

- B.D.

[CptCatz]

umm...i believe there is a country called the united states that has freedom of religion and i believe that almost every european country nowadays has a freedom of religion. and i believe all the far east countries have freedom of religion. pretty much all the countries that arent arab controlled have freedom of religion. the holocaust had nothing to do with israel, it had to do with WW2 and hitler. for as long as the united states has the power it has now and pretty much rules the world, jews dont have to worry about being persecuted. and even when european countries were persecuting them, the jews were still being stupid not to leave their homes. they should have just left and start a new life in america. if these people in israel dont leave their homes, they are willing to die for their country right? if they are willing to do this, then why do we say prayers for them? its just as easy to get on a plane and go somewhere else. i dont care what they do, if they make the wrong decisions, im not going to pray for them.

[sweetgirl12237]

ok lets say that the war was targeted on america. its UR home, u dont want to leave. some extreemist is bombing everyhting in sight, killing ur friends. woudl u jsut get up and leave and let them win or would u stay adn fight? think b4 u answer bc u know once u think about it long and hard ull realize u would stay. this is ur country how dare they take it away from u................. SAME WITH ISRAEL its our country how dare them try and take away what is rightfully ours!

[Bongo_Dude]

ditto to that

- B.D.

[CptCatz]

yes, i would fight. i am planning on joining the american air force when i get out of college. if i was just a normal civilian and people were bombing me, of course i wouldnt stay. i would either fight back or i would leave. the stupid israelis that live in the west bank and any other dangerous area that just stay there and dont care about bombs or shootings are not doig the right thing. either go buy a gun and kill the palastinians back or leave. sweetgirl, you even said it, we should stay and fight. but if the israelis are not fighting back, then theres no other choice.

[sweetgirl12237]

hun, this might give away a lot, but i haev frineds there and u knwo absolutely s**t about what ur saying. they are fighting back.. each andf every one of them. before u start spewing, think. bc u have no clue as to what ur saying!
i dont wnat to make enemies but i want u to realize that they arent jsut sitting there like "ducks" they are doing somethign abotu it.

[CptCatz]

so after a suicide bomb that kills 15 jews, the israelis just go and blow up a few empty buildings in retaliation.

[Confuzedinlimbo]

we dont have our own country anybody is free to kick us out at any time. did you see how easily people were won over by hitler? and the israeli army is in more danger than the arabs because if we do one thing wrong the world is on our backs. They want to squash us. Forcing them to put a Jewish country on the map is like forcing them over and over to admit there are still active Jews out there. That says more than anything. That's what's keeping us as one of the main religions no matter how small we are. Without is we're dead.The troops help maintain that and they have doneeverything they can to preserve Israel.

[sweetgirl12237]

cpctz, i lost 2 friends in bombings, and u knwo what the mother said on tv- we will never leave here bc our daughter is part of the earth. they died for that country.. israel is doing what it can... now with sharons new plan? what do U think of that?

[kiyara]

I dont like his new "unilateral concession" crap!!
He was supposed to be the biggest right-winger, but now that he came to office, he's being all diplomatic. Isn't it clear that all the pulling out, negotiation stuff has not worked!! All it does is cause more lives to be lost. It's an awful situation though, because with the whole world(BUSH) in Sharons face, he can't really do what he wants, or what shoyuld be done, because hes afraid of the worlds opinion. Here's where God comes in....

[CptCatz]

sweetgirl, ok, i respect your friends for dieing for their country but if they chose to do that, why in school do we keep saying all these mishaberachs and all that stuff for them? as i said before, im planning to join the US airforce and if i die, then that was my decision to join the armed forces and i dont need anyone to say mishaberachs.

[Bongo_Dude]

respect the dead - they gave their lives for their country and for their people. No Israeli is not fighting back in some way or another. CptCatz, the israelis in the west bank arent stupid, by any stretch of the imagination. They are doing what they believe is right, and they have given their lives for that. How can you downplay the self-sacrifice and dedication they show?? I understand u want to fight, but understand that not everyone has the ability to fight in wars, and in some cases, staying where you are is fighting back

- B.D.

[sweetgirl12237]

dont get me wrong, i respect that u wnat to fight for this (being america- a great country) country- but if ur laying in the hospital hurt g-d forbid, wouldnt u want ppl to pray for ur well being adn health?

[Bongo_Dude]

ditto again

[CptCatz]

so bongo_dude, do you pray for the palastians? when they blow themselves up, they are doing what they believe in and they are sacrificing themselves for "their" land. do you respect them for doing that?

[sweetgirl12237]

it is differnet, they take innocent lives with them.

[sweetgirl12237]

look at what happened today. would u pray for the injured? lets say its one of ur friends? (trust me that would be ur worst nightmare.- G-d forbid and i dont wish it on anyone)

[Bongo_Dude]

Yea but they arent killing for my beliefs, and they are stealing my land. They are killing my people and I pray for my people. Not to mention suicide is a death that should not be condoned. I have no respect for the pigs that the suicide bombers are. If they saw you in the street they wouldnt hesitate to kill you in a second with their bare hands (lynchin in Ramallah). How can you let them live

- B.D.

[lost33]

also cpt catz i dont think u understand something here, when u said thier is reliougus freedom in amerca europe ect. well when wa the last time you opened a news paper. ahve u seen the rising european anti semitism?! ive been there and trust me its worse then u think, everywere in london there are constant rallles for terrorists, they compare sharon to hitler and that six million jews was not enough. you have obviuosly never experianced anti smeitism in a real sense, not when ur life is in danger. has anyone every some up to u and spit on while shouting that theyd wished hitler had killed all the jews. this is happeneing in europe rihgt now. and this is a place were anti smeitism was thought to be all but dead a few years ago! now in america do you really think its gonna saty this way foreever. you r falling into the trasp that the jews of germany did before wwii. thay called berlin thier new jerusalm, so many of them could have been saved had they believed that hitler and the germans would really try to exterminate them all. so many of them refused to leave beliving that it would all fade away that they would never try to kill them!

the same thing can ahppen in america, it has become ahaven for jews, yes but who is to say that someday it will turn into what germany once was. were would you go then? we gave up israel didnt we, isnt that right?! so now were would u go to asia, once again u make a absic jewish fallacy that just because their ae so few jews thier that they arent anti semtic. in japan and korea bars praising hitler are sprouting up all around the country! in china the official govt policy is to support the palestinian and as a communist country with over a billion pple, where couples can only have one child, do you really think they willl take in the worlds jews?! escepecially when there is no historic presecne of jews in china.

so let see wats left, ok s america well we cant go theire, veneuzeala, argentina, abd columbi have become havens for islamic terrorists, escpecailly since the rules in those countries are so lax. also in a maj of the s american countires mnay of those govt are hostile to israel and consequently jews and are also easily swayed by the arab nations ( see wat happened during the partition vote in the UN)

now in argentina lets see do you rmeber whne terrorists bombed a JCC there and 88 pple died,alos u happened to have forgoten that ag=fter wwii argentina became a haven for nazis and still is.

so i huess wat im trying to point out to you is that there really is no where left for us to go the only place is israel. it is our homeland and we should die for it, whether the currnet israeli govt responds properly to terror attacks or not doesnt mean that we should leave. we cant be scared and cower under the temporarry protective arm of america we need to fight and be proud of who we are and that israel is our eternal homeland. i dont think you understand that things like this are worth dying for. i would die for isreal, it doesnt matter to me if it was by a suicide bomber or an arab bulllet i would have died in the defence of my country. yes even dying in a terror attack is still defending ur country its is up to GOD how you will die and i accept that however and whenevr GOD whats me to die is when it will ahppen

now lets hypotheiclly say u belive in GOD and judaism ( i dont know if u do but i snese u dont) now if u do, the only way to reach GOD is through prayer, that is why we say mishabarachs for israel, tzahal and those that died in defense of isreal our country. a jewish life is worthless without his homeland. i hope i havent offended you in any way for making these generalazations about u but u have to learn some pride and strecgth in ur country, israel. and i have question for u which side would u choose if america and israel got into a war?

[magniv123]

cptcatz:

okay first off, wow you are super patriotic for the states, and thats pretty cool.
but i have to tell you that you really really really dont know what youre talking about. when did a bombing kill fifteen israelis and then the israelis 'retaliated" by blowing up several empty buildings?????? okay i know this from friends of mine that are in tzahal and went thru all the motions -- israelis are trained to check for innocent civilians in a building and check EVERY SINGLE ROOM before blowing antyhing up...okay tell me this now cpt, what did america do in afghanistan and iraq???
did you see the americans checking any rooms?

uh no.

listen i like my life in america here, ill be quite honost. it rocks. i can have whatever i want (materialistically), and i mean that literally. i can. but i dunno, im not american. my anscestors did not build up this country the way they did in israel. maybe i can say that because that is my family and its a personal issue. maybe you dont have a connection with israel the way many others do.

but do you really think that the states offer true freedom as you so defended? listen, no matter where you go there are gonna be freedom issues and infringemnts, i mean in israel the jews cant all agree you got the haredim, the knitted kipot (haha love that name), the hilonim, etc...and dont forget within all that, theres sefardim and ashkenazim! okay, im not saying switch your army service from the US to haaretz...but just thik aoubt what you are defending. because i dont see how america (militarily)acts so much more riighteously than israel does.

and about the arabs, i dont think we can look at who israel belongs to from a religious standpoint, because as cpt said regarding whether or not Bongodude prays for the palestinians as well (i gotta give you props for that one cpt, that was a smooth comment! seriously!) because they have a belief just like we do...ANYONE CAN COME AND SAY LOOK I GOT THIS HERE BOOK CALLED A BIBLE AND I BELIEVE IN IT -- all the world is about belief...and thats where i think all we can turn to is the decision fo the U.N. and any wars after that. like when we took back land FAIR AND SQUARE!

you cant prove beliefs wrong. i mean whos to say that we are right in our religion and others are not right in theirs??? you cant. morally and intellectually! it just doesnt work.

thats where politics come in.....



magniv!

[CptCatz]

well about defending my country, thats exactly what i plan to do, i plan to join the US armed forces. israel is not my country and i dont see why it would be. i've been there once for 2 weeks and thats it. i've been to mexico more than that. israel has nothing to do with me. why dont i go join the algerian armed forces and fight for algeria? because it has nothing to do with me. i live in america and american soldiers are risking their life for me as a kid, not israeli soldiers. i feel like when i get old enough, i should be fighting for the young people in my country who cant fight yet. im not pro israel but im not con israel, im nothing to it. what i see in the newspaper doesnt really affect me. yesterday there was a subway bombing im russia, that bombing affects me just as much as israel bombings do. yes, i feel bad for the people that die, but what can I do? im not going to go fight for russians and im not going to go fight for israelis, im going to fight for americans because america is my land.

[magniv123]

listen, its all good sentiment what youre saying here about you fighting for citizens the ppl are fighting for you. and ya maybe you dont feel that israel is your country -- and maybe it isnt so to speak.

just remember this. when all the other countries close their doors on you (Gd forbid -- im not wishing this on you! im just posing hypothetically) there will be one that is open, and its israel.

why?

because youre a jew. you think america cares about you all so much? in my opinion, i dont think it does. it maybe cares for you now because your parents pay good taxes and you boost the economy when you buy stuff and by living here, etc.
and as much as you would fight for america till the end, im not so sure how america would fight for you will the end?

and another thing about america. ya the constitution and bill of rights etc...they were so ahead of their time and so beautiful, but who wrote them? slave holders. and look, just in the past what like thirty years we're finally getting over segregation????? whats with that?

and how about during the second world war. ya america was fighting against the efforts of hitler, but we were putting our very own citizens of oriental dissent into camps very similar to ghettos that hitler created proceding pearl harbor!

look in the history books, america is not too keen on minorities -- its a double edged sword living here!

aslong as you are jewish, you are a minority. and as open the doors of america are for minorities, so said, theyre not guaranteed to stay that way forever....

and im not saying you should chose israel over america, im just saying you should reconsider the facts abuot american history before you place it above all. just because you live here doesnt mean you belong here.


magniv!

[lost33]

Cptcatz do u really believe America will always stay the way it is, do u really think that the anti-Semitism that is reemerging in Europe wont reach you in your nice comfortable home in America. You are living in a bubble, you think that there is no such as Jew hatred in America that it is the land of freedom. That may be true now, but who's to say it will stay that way. Up until 3 years ago everyone thought anti-Semitism was dead in Europe but we know now that that isn’t true. Anti-Semitism is on the rise again in Europe and it will, in time, reach us here in America. When it does were will we go, I am wondering because if we don’t have to protect Israel because we live in America, since, obviously Israel doesn’t matter, were will we go then? Were will we go when, God forbid, the Holocaust comes to America, were will we go then???

[CptCatz]

im not worrying about the future. im worrying about right now. right now america is a great place. because this is a great place, i PLAN on joining the air force. if it changes, then unlike the israelis, i will get the heck outa here. but in my 16 years of life, america has treated me great. and anti semitism wont directly effect me. i dont look jewish, i dont wear kippas, i dont wear tzitzis, i dont have payis, i dont even go to shul anymore. if you follow my daily life now, the only way to tell im jewish is because i go to a jewish school but in 2 years i wont even be doing that. i look and act just like any other american.

[lost33]

How sad that you are so embarrassed of being a Jew that you try to hide it. You wont be able to hide the fact that you are Jew forever, the world will never let you forget that. I hope one day you have enough pride in yourself and your people to stand up and proclaim to the world that you are a Jew and you are proud of it. stop hating yourself so much a self-hating Jew contributes nothing. You can't run away from who you are, no matter how hard you try. Assimilation is the antithesis of strength, it is a weakness, and it is a lack of pride in oneself as a Jew. Why is it that the Jews greatest enemies are ourselves.

[sweetgirl12237]

"i will get the heck outa here." where the hell r u going to go??!?!?!?
i am so sorry that you are so ashamed of your heritage but one day u will realize that the only thing left you have to go on is your jewish roots and i pray to God that you will find pride in that....
good luck to u

[Friendly]

cpt, I would like to point out that America is not as good a haven as it seems. After World War II, the American soldiers stole the Jewish items which were taken by the Nazis. They knew it was stolen. Sure, its great that they finally got up to save the Jews, but their "lack of knowing" what was happening, and one would have had to be very blind not to realize what was happening in Europe at that time, showed and shows a lack of care for the Jewish people, which can happen again, G-d forbid. The Jewish people are and were always connected, and you'll find that the Jewish people were and are always there for each other. Its a beautiful connection. You should do some research into your Jewish heritage. Tell us what you find.

[magniv123]

Good suggestion, Friendly!

Also, Cpt, fine so you "look like any other American" but let me point out to you that in the Holocaust a huge amount of Jews sent to camps, etc looked like any other German (in germany for example). Many many many of the Jews during that time were not religious - they did not have payis they did not wear kipot they did not wear tzitzit -- they looked "normal" like eveyrone else.

It doesnt matter how you look and what you do on the outside.
You cant erase your heritage. And your heritage is Jewish whether you like it or not. You may not be continuing on in the same path, but the world will always see you as a JEW whether you like it or not. You think non Jews know all so much about the physical things of Judaism?
If a government/society/group knows you are Jewish, that that is your descent, so you are jewish in their book. And thats it.

what do you think?

[CptCatz]

what do i think? i think that this is all complete crap. i dont care what my heritge is. i dont care what my ancestors went through, i care about me. yes that may sound shallow and immature but i dont care! and why do you peple think my heritige is jewish anyways? you dont know who i am and to be perfetly honest with you, i have some serious issues with my grandparents and we dont even think they were jewish. please, dont say anything about my heritige because you guys know nothing about it.

[lost33]

You say we don’t know anything about your heritage well if your not Jewish as u so angrily imply then why bring the subject up at all. Why are u so adamant of being a gentile when as u imply u aren't Jewish to begin with?

[CptCatz]

what i meant about my heritige is that judaism wise, im a bastard. no one knows who my grandfather really is and other people say he most likely wasnt jewish. thats what i mean by that. but anyways, i dont care about my heritige anyways, it means nothing to me.

[sweetgirl12237]

ur jewish heritage does not go by the male, it goes by the female. i hate to break it to u but in that case u most likely are jewish....
when u say ur heritage means nothing to u? in many years from now u might want to know where u come from. the fac that the jewihs nation has always been ther for one another is a wonderful thing. who is going to be there for u??

[Bongo_Dude]

The heritage is technically passed down by the female, but it is only there for those who want it. If you chose to ignore your heritage then it is lost - it is as simple as that. Uf the heritage means nothing to you, cptcatz, then why are you on a site for Jewish kids. why do you go to a yeshiva? If it is so insignificant you should be in public school. I therefore conclude that your jewish heritage is a little more important to you than you're willing to admit. It is so easy to be lost in this world and society - don't let go of the thing that can keep you from becoming lost.

[lost33]

cptctz u can never escape from who you are. So why do u torture yourself by trying to hide from it, embrace your heritage because for better or worse your Jewish and no matter how hard you try you can never stop being a Jew

[CptCatz]

cptctz u can never escape from who you are. So why do u torture yourself by trying to hide from it,

that is just a stupid and untrue cliche. its total bullsh**. why do i torture myself? i love my life, i dont torture myself. i bet i have a MUCH better life than all of you people out there. bongo-dude, why do i go to a yeshiva? because my parents (mainly just my mom) WANTS me to have a jewish background and whats me to be jewish and spiritual and all that stuff. if i really wanted to, i could probably convince my parents to let me go to public school but at this point in my life, i dont want to. im very popular, i've got lots of friends, and yeshiva is really easy. im not going to transfer to public school after 2 years of highschool. i wouldnt want to transfer to any school in my high school years. so bongo-dude and everyone else, stop trying to convince me that im wrong because you are wrong and i dont care about my heritage.

[lost33]

I have nothing more to say to someone who is so convinced that he is so right, that he gladly shuns and throws away his heritage. He dishonors all those who have died in the name of his heritage, and in order that he would be able to live his life freely. He dishonors all those who struggled to make it to America and kept there traditions alive, even during the worst of times, just so he could spit it back in their face and throw it all away. For what? For some unattainable dream of becoming a gentile?! For country that will one day return to its nativist roots and destroy this haven we have created for ourselves here. Such close-mindedness is incomprehensible to me. I cannot understand how someone could hate his heritage so much, how someone could be so embarrassed of who they are. I don’t understand how one can completely turn their back on who they are, and yet still convince themselves that they are right, that who you are and were you come from is not important. I am sorry but such an attitude towards life is impossible for me to entertain seriously.

[sweetgirl12237]

i agree with lost, he put it beautfiully (weird word but wtvr)... i hope that u, cpctz, realize that the jewish faith will always be there for u no matter what u do, whether u shun it or not. i hope that u realize that and grasp that and take advantage of it. if u dont then u r losing out on something wonderful...
the way lost put it was perfect. u say u dotn care about ur heratige but somewhere down the line, one of ur great great grandparents came to this country to start again and this country gave them that chance to be jewish. ur throwing that away.
wtvr obviously u dont care so im not goign to waste my words anymore

[CptCatz]

He dishonors all those who have died in the name of his heritage, and in order that he would be able to live his life freely.

do you read any of my other posts? i live here freely because the united states army was fighting for our freedom in world war two. the united states let the jewish imigrants come here. this is why i plan on joining the american armed forces. and who are you to say For country that will one day return to its nativist roots and destroy this haven we have created for ourselves here.? you and no one else knows whats going to happen to our country in the future. that has absolutely nothing to do with this because we really dont know. and you think i have a dream of becoming a gentile? jesus christ man, your screwed up. i dont have a dream of becoming a gentile and you have no right to say that. and another thing your talking out of your *** about is me being embarassed of who i am. im not embarassed. i just dont care. life is too short to be worrying about all this stuff. just live your short life without worries and you will be much happier.

[Maddox]

"SINGLE ROOM before blowing antyhing up...okay tell me this now cpt, what did america do in afghanistan and iraq???
did you see the americans checking any rooms?

uh no."

uhh.. magniv, thats a bunch of bs. We used specifically used precision guided bombs that can go through windows of compounds so they dont hit surrounding buildings. We use EMP bombs which wipe out all the pc/and electrical equipment so we dont have to use high tech explosives to kill innocent civilians. Your thinking is flawed. If we wanted to we coulda leveled baghdad during Operation shock and awe but we didnt because we didnt want to kill inocent civilians, so I dont want to hear it. The US AND Israeli army are very humane when it comes to military assaults, so you cant just go and say one is.. and one isnt.

[Friendly]

I see that you like your life as it is so fine. I don't see the reason of trying to convince you of anything because it's a stupid thing to do in my view if you don't want it. I just want to say that as a last note by me, a certain perek of tehilim, even though you pretty much said that you didn't want a life of a gentile, but this perek just popped into my head and I felt like posting something, is a perek about what some people here were talking about, though I not certain of the exact meaning now. Anyway, it's perek ayin gimmel. Read it if you want. Of course, by this, I mean the translation. You can say it if you want too. I'm not forcing you into anything. It might not be the exact of anything here, but just to remind you, it popped into my head. So no matter if it does or doesn't fit into the conversation, there it is. Bye.

[jesusboy]

I hear your point, and the land vs. human lives is a real issue, but I dont think leaving now, realistically would do anyone any good. Except for the "evildoers!" terrorists. What we have to do is some serious damage, some major bomb, that may kill many civilians, buty also many terrorist. the israelis have good intelligence-use it!!!
i think ur 100% wrong u cant just kill em first of all thats not the jewish way 2 if u will all the world who is not on our side wiil kil isreal in a hour so its not worth it

[Friendly]

i think ur 100% wrong u cant just kill em first of all thats not the jewish way 2 if u will all the world who is not on our side wiil kil isreal in a hour so its not worth it There may be the rare number of people that are good. No, thats not the jewish way. Might be worth it. Interesting screenname.

[jesusboy]

There may be the rare number of people that are good. No, thats not the jewish way. Might be worth it.

wat r tryin to say i dont get a thing u sayd? :confused: :confused: :confused: :

[lost33]

ure right u know instead of going after terrorists who want to kill us why dont we just leave and let them build up their weapons and bombs and let them kill us i mean isnt that right? i mean we did "occupy" their lands and its only right that they try to push us into the sea

[jesusboy]

lost
wat r u talkin about????? :confused: :confused:

[CptCatz]

yes, the land of israel at this point is ours. thats what war is. the jews have won the major wars in the past (1948, 1967, 1973) and from that, the jews have control of israel. the problem is, right now in the year 2004, there has been a war going on for roughly a few years. war has not been declared but this is a long term slow war going on and as i type this, the palastinians are winning. they have been winning the whole time. now i've said this before and i'll say it again. fine, dont let them win, but also dont let this war keep going on. israel does not retaliate the right ways. they have to show the palistinains who they are messing with. an arab kills 15 jews in an attack, the jews go and kill the hamas leader who they can easily replace. dont just kill the leader, kill EVERYONE - good or bad, woman or man, adult or child, EVERYONE.

[lost33]

israel should not be restrained from taking defensive measures againts a hostile alien population. you seem to say that for israel to defend itslef and to kill murdereres and terorrists with blood on their hands is not the "jewish way" pleaase tell what is because i always thought that defending yourslef against someone whos coming to kill you was the jewish way obviuosly i must be mistaken. u right the jewish way is to sit passivlly while your brethren r being killed.

[lost33]

i dont know if i compltetly agree wiht u cptctz but i know i wouldnt be upset if the palestinians would be gone.

[sweetgirl12237]

cpctz, i knwo that we should not think about the repricussions, but think about the repricussions that israel woudl get from the world if they did that! and how realistic is that really? can u kill every single last person.. all of the immigrants that have left, who once we kill their family will come back and take revenge. not to mention all the arabic countries that will declare war on israel for what they did.... think about it... its not the best idea. btu then again is what we are doing now the best idea?? giving BACK most of the west bank and the gaza?

[sweetgirl12237]

is that really going to make everything all better? is that really going to stop the palestinians from entering 'israel proper' and israeli territories and blowing themselves up?? so now cpctz, what is the best way??

[CptCatz]

ok, the way i look at it is that there are three options:

1) do nothing. let the land be how its been for the past 3 years with a 15 death terrorist bombing every once in a while.

2) jews will win. jews controlling all of the land and killing most of the palastinians without leting them live in israel because once a few calm arabs come in, then more will come in which will bring back terrorism

3) palastinians will win. having it be like before 1948 and the jews will live in other places.

now none of these are good options. for me personally, i dont really care what happens there because i dont live there and im not planning on living there. if they chose number 1, i dont see that as a good option because jews are dieing in these spontaneous terrist attacks and its pretty much just a guerilla war not going anywhere. option number 2 sounds good but as you said, it cant happen because there are too many arab countries which israel wont be able to contend with which means more wars and more death. now that leaves with option 3. personally, i think out of the three options, thats the one they should go with. thats why i created this topic and named it what it is. this leaves me with saying what i've been saying all along, is the land if israel worth the deaths of all these jews?

[sweetgirl12237]

thats the same as asking is america worth the death of all the americans???
of course it is. america is a great country, it gives us so much freedom and so much. so now what do you see that is so different with israel. it is OUR land, the land given to us since day one, of course it is worth it. and i know that sounds weird, how im sayign its worth the lives btu if you ask anyone who has lost family or survivors they will tell you that they will never leave bc its their land and that their family/friends have died for the country they loved, and they cant think of a more 'important' cause to die for (if they had to die)... i hope that made sense....

[CptCatz]

whose killing the american civilians? ok, 9/11 happened but that was a once in a lifetime thing to see. if your talking about the soldiers in iraq, then thats toally differant. its one thing for soldiers to die in war but its differant for civilians that want to lead a peaceful life that are getting blown up while eating a slice of pizza or dancing at a bar mitzvah.

[lost33]

basiuclly ur three options r

1 let things stay the way they r

2 kill or kick out all the arabs and send them to the 22 other arab nations surrounding israel

3 kill or kick out all the jews and send them to the other (non-existant) jewish nations on earth

im glad to see that u decided to have the jews killed instead of the arabs bec as a jew urslef, wether u like it or not, it def makes more snese to have ur brethren killed and exiled once again. bec why should israel have a right to exist, i mean they dont destroy arab terror bec of political concerns so that must mean they should be destroyed.

ur self hating logic is despicable and whether u appreciate ur jewishness or not ur choice out of ur 3 options is wrong even if u werent a jew. how would the world benefit form another arab terrorist state?

[CptCatz]

whoa whoa whoa!!! now you are putting words in your mouth. is it something that you cant read? where in ANY of my posts did i say i "decided to have the jews killed instead of the arabs"?????? you are just like all my friends, when i say one little thing that maybe negative towards israel, they all turn on me and say im anti israel and pro arabs. i am not at all. jesus christ man, im not going post here if you people are putting these stupid and worthless words in my mouth. my whole entire thinking is that the jews SHOULD NOT FU**ING DIE!!! please, tell me where you saw in any of my posts that i think the jews or my brethren killed? not anywhere did i ever put down someone elses opinion, i dont see why you have to put mine down. so far we've been having a good calm debate here but you have to come and say that? and you were also being very sarcastic in that little paragraph there which makes it look even worse. i hope you get my point right now so i'll shut up, but please, dont do that again.

[lost33]

i obviously must have misunderstood ur post i asuumed that if the "palestinians" were to take over israel that the this ment israel should give up on its war against terrorists and let the arabs kick them out of thier country. i also assumed that you belived the world was a safe place for the jews. i mean the jews are accepted in what one, two countries besides for israel, so ur 6 million jews will pick up and leave thier homeland and the world will just take them in. you obviously dont think that the influx of 6 million jews will not create more and more anti semitism, coupled with the rise of muslims in europe i doubt many jews would be able to move there and i highly doubt america would take in 6 milllion refugees. i also doubt any jew would be allowed to live in israel after the "palestinians" take over. i am sorry for my sarcasm and my misunderstanding of ur post but i dont belive letting the palestininas win will save jewish life in fact i think it will destroy more lives then any of ur other options, if u purpose is to save jewish lives then i think uve picked the wrong choice. the creatioon of 6 million jewish refuggees will not make the world love us anymore, i feel that insteasd it will eventually lead to another Holocaust. the world does not enjoy having jews within thier midsts, no matter what they say they r still antismeites to some degree underneath it all. i doubt they would be able to contain thier hatred for us if they r to be left with 6 million jewish refugees on thier doorsteps.

my answer may not be right but it is what i think and feel will undoubtublly happen if the jews are exiled form thier homeland again. it took us 2000 yrs to get back home why give it up without a fight, the jewish pepople r going to have to realize that the arabs want us to die they have been promising to push us into the sea for over 50 years, when will we wake up and begin to believe them. we cannot be weak and run away without a fight, their r somethings in life worth dying for, for without israel the jewish people would be in a far worse position then they r now. i am sorry if u were upset at my sarcasim and misinterpretation of ur answer i let my anger get in the way but i hope you realize the basic fallicies within ur argument.

[CptCatz]

ok fine, understood. so what do you think they should do?

[Admiringtheworld]

Hey CptCatz,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the Israeli-arab conflict. If we just avoid the problem, we aren't having hope. When you run away from a problem you don't learn from it and you don't grow-you're growth is stunted. until that hole inside you is mended, you will be keeping yourself from any possibility of growth. In Mesilas Yesharim, it is stated that this world is a corridor to prepare us for the world to come. that gives us hope that we are preparing for an ultimate goal which gives a person the sense that everything they do is for a purpose...ok i've got to get to bed now. but i'll let off with this one lesson. The more inner peace you have, the more strength you have. when a group displays unity and works together, their ultimate strength will be greater.....Think about this, if you have a job which you know there is no way you'll come to a higher level, then you won't work hard at your job because you don't have hope that you can grow and get to a new level.....Now compare that to a situation when a person knows that he'll receive more money the more satisfied his customer is. in that situation he'll put his heart to it as long as he has a feeling that he could do it. and the more he creates nice tables the better he becomes at creating nice tables. He'll figure out how to sand it as smoother as possible, and how to etch designs into it, and how to car nice legs into it, etc... let me know what you think of my thoughts. thank you, please get back to me if you have any questions or you'd like to know about books which will give you a better sense of the power of hope.

[CptCatz]

maybe im just not getting it but what does any of that have to do with what we're talking about?

[mochaaa2]

Have you ever been to Israel CptCatz?

[lost33]

cptctz i really dont know what should be done. i mean i know that i would be happy if all the "palestinians" were to be transfered to Jordan wiht a "palestinian" state being created in jordan, but the rational part of me wont let me belive such a thing is possible. dont really know what israel should do though i do think this evacuation/expulsion plan for gaza wont help and no matter what sharon does it will still be a victory for terror. nor do i think giving back land will solve anything, the judea, samaria and gaza are intergral parts of israel. evacuating them and expelling all the jews that live their is morally and strategiclly wrong. i would like to see israel ofiicially annex Yesha but i wouldnt know how they would solve the arab demographic problem because then the arabs in Yesha would have the option of becoming citizens which would destroy israel as a jewish state. so as u can see i dont really have an option to solve the problems in israel. all i know is that giving in to the terorirsts is the stupidest thing israel can do. israel, all of israel is important no piece can ever be given away. giving away land to terorrists will not end the terror, nor are the 67 borders easier to defend. by retreating to the 67 borders israel is just opening itself up to attack.

cptctz u see i dont really have any real solutiions, all i know is why i feel ur solution is wrong. i would love to see all the arabs kicked out of israel, and i would support such an action, but i highly doubt israel will have the strenght to do what is right and get rid of the evil within its midsts.

[lost33]

admiringtheworld

wat r u talking about?

[CptCatz]

Have you ever been to Israel CptCatz?
yes i went for my bar mitzvah three years ago but me going to israel has nothing to do with how i feel the situation there is. i've also been to 11 differant countries and 32 states...if your wondering about that too

[mochaaa2]

That's cool but no I was asking bc I know that having been there so many times myself i've grown to love Israel so much that I would fight for her. I can't imagine us without her. I really believe that Israel is our future, and all the fighting is worth it. It's a horrible struggle but I don't think we as Jews would be where we are today without Israel, and I don't think that we will forever be as comfortable in galut as we are today, and it's so incredibley important to have Israel there for us. I think G-d is fighting with us too. There have been so many unbelieveable miracles in Israel's short history, and those miracles can have only have come from G-d. Besides for the fact that the Palestinians will not be better off with us gone. The Jewish pioneers came into Israel and it was a wasteland. The Arabs had ignored the land and had let it detiriorate into an infertile swampland. The Jews were the ones who turned Israel into what she is today. We have made Israel so beautiful, and we have bettered the lives of everyone - Israelis and Palestinians alike. If the Palestinians stop listening to all the garbage that their leaders tell them, and actually thought about it I'm sure that majority of them would rather live in Israel than in a seperate Palestinian state.Israel is ours. It is our land, and I know it because I can feel it when I'm there. We belong there, and we will never abandon our country.

[CptCatz]

i fully believe in fighting for the country you love, that is why i plan on joining the american airforce. but as i said before, soldiers dieing is not the same as civilians dieing. civilians that chose to stay peaceful should not have to be blown up in restaraunts. if you want to join the armed forces and want to fight, then dieing in battle is honorable and i respect that (both for the enemy and yourself) but being killed while just trying to go on with your normal life is stupid.

[lost33]

cptctz

every israeli is a soldier, and i dont mean that every israeli has been in the army or is a reserve soldeir. i mean that every israeli by just livinvg in israel is fighting against the very things that "palestinians" are trying to destroy. The very act of israelis going on wiht their daily lives in face of inhuman teror makes them a soldier in the war against arab inhumanity. by living they are denying the arabs a victory in their war to annhilate the jewish people. yes it is true that its is heart wrenching to see israleis being blown up on buses just trying to live their lives. it is a disgusting fact that israelis have to face such an inhuman enemy while the world stands by and does nothing. yet the israelis cant just pick up and run away because the arabs have decided to throw all decency and humanity out the window. nor, unfortunatly, can israel destory or remove the arabs. the world would never allow israel to get away with such an action, however sensible and right it is in actuallity. all im saying is that, it is horrible that israelis are dying everyday in the war against arab terror, but that is no reaosn to pick up and cowardly run away. Also israelis know the dangers they face by living there, yet herocilly they qhve not caved in to terror and still continue to choose, by their own volition, to remain strong and stay in their only true home.

also by ur definition "if you want to join the armed forces and want to fight, then dieing in battle is honorable and i respect that (both for the enemy and yourself)" then it is honorable for the "palestinians" to blow themselves up on a bus in Jerusalem bec for them, any non-muslim is an enemy.

[CptCatz]

also by ur definition "if you want to join the armed forces and want to fight, then dieing in battle is honorable and i respect that (both for the enemy and yourself)" then it is honorable for the "palestinians" to blow themselves up on a bus in Jerusalem bec for them, any non-muslim is an enemy.
no, the suicide bombers are not (imo) soldiers and are not fighting a fair war. if they were blowing up israeli soldiers who are willing to fight back, then yes. but if they are cowardly killing innocent people, then i have no respect for them and they should go to hell.

[convoluted]

Why is the philosophy always The only good arab is a dead arab Why is that all we can ever say about them. You know my teachers father or mother i forgot which passed out (older man) the spouse screamed for help and an arab came, helped lie him down and call 911 there are other similar stories of arabs saving jews and jews saving arabs. yes there are those of them who believe all jews should be killed but if we all believe that all arabs should be killed really are we any better than they are i do believe force should be met with force only against those parties who are responsible for the original negative force Because for many people force is all they listen to. But in the gemara (Yoma peh bet i bellieve <or around there>) there comes a discussion about what a person may do if someone tells him to go kill someone or be killed. so he asked a rabbi what he has to do.. The answer: be killed. why? because either way one person is dying he shouldnt also be over the mitzvah of "dont kill" if you want to kill terrorists who are threatening to kill people or put them (the terrorists) in jail its justified but otherwise what makes us anybetter than them by killing innocent arabs. Not only this but once you kill them their a tight community and you only are building more enemies.

Just some thoughts feel free to argue, -Convo

[lost33]

thats a nice idea but what are we supposed to do wait untill the arab comes to our door with a gun and then decide whether or not he really wants to kill us?

[convoluted]

No wait till the arab buys an illegal bomb or wires himself with explosives...
if you say it like that then the arabs should be attacking us. before you post consider the argument against it ... its gonna take a little more than that to prove you right...

(not to say i think your wrong...)

[lost33]

wat i was trying to say is that we cant just sit back and only act when we are attacked we have to go in and fight the enemy we know is trying to kill us, we have to pre-empt any terrorist action they may try to commit. we cant just sit back and only fight when we are forced to escpecially when we know that the stated goal of the "palestinians" is to push us into the sea

[Bongo_Dude]

There is no solution to the arab-israeli conflict under the present circumstances. The only way for israel to really be secure in its true borders (post-1967), as far as i can tell, is to evict the palestinians and to build a big strong wall around itself. not that the world would accept that. Israel has to fight back - i cant see how thats even a question - or it will be destroyed by the enemy that has corrupted its midst. In my mind, the security fence is great. I was in oranit, a small schunah dati (religious "settlement") just on the green line during my trip to israel and you could see the fence from my aunt and uncles porch, and just beyond it several arab villages. I definitely felt better haveing that fence in between. Killing them all is neither humane, nor practical. It doesnt even make sense - they do deserve to live just as much as we do, even if they have reduced themselves (at least some of them) to animals in their attacks of israeli citizens and in their use of their children as tank fodder and bomb carriers. They just have very little if no right to live in the state of israel, murdering the citizens of the state whose lands they occupy. thats just some of my take on things. I'm sure some of u guys are gonna jump on me for it, but if i gAve in to that who would i be??

- B.D.

[CptCatz]

They just have very little if no right to live in the state of israel..

why not??

[Bongo_Dude]

Because, as a religious Jew, I believe the land to be the rightful territory of my people, of which they are not a part, and only due to the persecution and eviction of the Jews from Israel have they come to live in the land. On top of that, the vast majority of them never owned the land - they worked it for Arab overseers who either lived elsewhere in "palestine" or in other countries altogether before 1948. Once the overseers lost their rights to the land, either by selling it to the Jews or once it was annexed into the State, the "palestinians" remained, and now claim some right to it. In any case, I believe that they have little if no right to the land - most people would disagree with me.

[lost33]

BD i agree with evrything you said except what you say about the fence. the fence is not and should nto be seen as a border, israel extends to the jordan river always has and always will. people look at the fence and think its a nice idea and will prevent aginst terror attacks, while this is true i have a few problems with this line of thinking. many pple forget that their are still countless number of jews who live beyond the fence, in kiryat arba and chevron alone thier is about 4,000 jews! the fence does not include them and in a sense is declaring smbolically that they are not an integral part of israel. when in fact the exact opposite is true. also with the fence why is it that the jews have to be the ones who are ones again putting ourselves into a ghetto? we suffered for 2000 years inside ghettos why again must we endure such suffering. it si our enemies who should be put behind a wall not us. the fence i feel is a good idea because it protects us from terror attacks but i feel the political ramifications of the fences path are dire. i feel the government is going to retreat to this fence and expell the jews who live on the "wrong" side of the fence form their homes. so i dont really know where i really stand on the fence but i do agree that the "palestinians" being a hostile and alien enemy population should be permanently removed, though i doubt israel will have the strenght to do this no matter how right and sensible it truly is.

[Bongo_Dude]

Fences can be moved - at the moment this is the most secure and politically feasible route for it - dont worry about the Jews on the other side. We're not in a ghetto - the palestinians are - i dont see any curfews or checkpoints imposed on the Israelis. The fence isnt declaring anything - its just keeping the people of Israel safe.

[sweetgirl12237]

i dont want to argue to much on the fence point, i think its a great idea but most israelis who look out at the fence each and every day think its a really bad idea... they feel liek they are in a cage and there is no way out.. so to some ppl it in liek they are in the ghetto... i dont mean to bring more controversy to an already 'bad' topic but just wanted to point out the other view

[CptCatz]

i dont mean to bring more controversy to an already 'bad' topic but just wanted to point out the other view
how is this any worse than any of the other topics?

[Icegal104]

umm dont u think that israel is an important issue? like we just had israel indpendence day 2day!!! howd u like it if there was another holocaust and the jews had no country of their own to run to?? what if the arabs really did kill all the jews?????

just a thought...
~I Luv Ice~

[sweetgirl12237]

wow so i didnt put my post in the right words but i am def not the person to be lecturing about love for israel. of course israel is an important issue, my friends have died for that land, i would die for israel without a secnd thought. dont assume that bc i showed a different view that i have no love for israel! bc u cant be more wrong!!

[convoluted]

If i am not mistaken you just said the only way we can be safe is by pushing them all out into their neighboring lands. I am not opposed to this in fact i am pro it but think about it, you are now bringing 2 BIG problems.
1 if you surround them with brick walls or their settlements w walls. Are we any better than the germans who put us in ghettos? Ok so we never attacked the germans but think in the perspective of the Goyim please....
The political repricussions cannot be justified, ppl just wouldnt accept it.
2. if we push them out we are doing Jihad too?
arent we? except our jihad means push them to neighboring lands and not to sea. Who is to say that by push us to the sea doesnt mean to america, just like push them out by us means to neighboring arab countries. so we have no neighboring non-arab countries so they say to the sea...

id like to be proved wrong here... dont get me wrong but these are serious issues

[lost33]

the idea to transfer the arabs to israel is a very complex issue. the idea is that israel in order to protect itself and remove a hostile alien population would annex Yesha and give the arabs monetary incentives to leave or, though im nto sure im correct, they would forcibly trnasfer arabs to jordan but these arabs would receive monetary compensation. also jordan would become palestine with the granting of citizen ship in jordan of all the "palestinains refugees"and all the arabs in israel would have the option to become citizens of this palestine but would lose any citizenshp they have in israel. they would become residents of israel not citizens and would be considered as such under the law. this would get rid of the demographic catastrophe israel is facing today as well as the terrorists living within its midst because the arabs would have relocated to palestine. this idea behind transfer has worked in the past, for example btwn greece and turkey and with the creation of india and pakistan.

the analogy to the germans is a dangerous idea. to fence in dangerous "palestinain" towns and hotbeds of terrorism is not the same in any way to the germans. the jews posed no threat to germany, they were put in ghettoes in order to have them annhilated. where as iwith srael if it were to wall off "palestinain" towns it will be beacuase they are a major source of danger for israel they pose a threat to the lives of innnocent israelis. they are not being walled off because they are arabs, they are walled off because they engage in violent attacks against jews.

the idea that by transfering the arabs to jordan is in no way comparable to the arab jihad against the jews. the arabs have called for the destruction of israel and all jews since the rebirth of a soveirgn jewish state. and they do mean it when they say they want to push us into the sea, they mean they want to kill us. they dont want to push us to america, their aim is the anhillation of all jews and the destruction of the state of israel.

it is a dangerous fallacy to compare israeli actions to those of the terrorist arab populations. the idea behind transfer is that jewish blood is not cheap. the government of israel should not stand idly by while countless number of jews are being killed. those who support transfer do so because they see it as the only viable way to remove a dangerous and alien poluation from wihtin israels midsts.

the reason that this idea seems so politically unfeasible is because the leftists media has the wrapped around its finger. they have convinced the world that it is the palestinains who are the victim and the jews who are the new nazis. if it were any other antion on earth the arabs would have been remvoed a long time ago. it is because the world is inherently anti-semtic that israel is unable to respond properly to the arab threat it is facing today. israel, and jews all over the world, have to relaize that the world will always be anti-semtic. no matter how much we assimilate we are still hated. so the world will hate israel for removing a threat form it midsts, they have always hated israel and always will. no matter what israel does it will still be hated, i doubt even if israel gave in to the terrorists that it would gain much in the much vaunted world opinion