Conservatives

[ShavvsTheJewbee]

Okay
I usto live in Brooklyn NY and when i did live there i would go to an all girls, uniform, orthodox school. When i moved to new jersey i was a part of an Orthodox co-ed Yeshiva and today i am in a Conservative high-school. I went from being orthodox to being conservative. Sometimes it really does bother me knowing i gave all of it up. But in the Conservative hs i cant be me. I cant be who i want to be. For example i was not bat mitzvad. I look at girls in my school and in my youth group wearing a talit and i just think about how wrong that is. Im Israeli so my parents do not agree with a woman going up to the torah. Its not the way i was raised and sometimes i felt left out not being a part of that. But ive grown to learn that i'm me and i do not agree with that nor will i ever. I honestly didnt know what conservatives were until i came to my current hs. I would do anything to go back to who i was. Hoping to hear your opinion about this.

[Blink]

if you know how fake it all is then why stay or even consider yourself conservative, associate yourself with orthodox rabbis, go to shiurim, im sure lubavitch are in your area (their even in alaska!).
If you cant leave the school im sure their are plenty of orthodox Rabbis in your area who you can seek guidance from and to be your Rebbe

[SNs]

funny, i also used to live in brooklyn except when i lived there my parents were conservative and when we moved my parents became orthodox. and i would do anything to go back to who i was then too...

what is stopping u from being orthodox, ur school, parents, friends, or u can be but cant put in the effort right now?

[booklet0519]

i can think just of one kind of conservative high schools... at the one by us, there are every type of jews: from reform to orthodox... can u ask to switch tfilla groups, adn daven in a traditional minyan???
talk to the prinicpail... maybe there is soemthing he/she can do to help u out

hope that helps

[diamtricalduality]

I believe my story may be of some help: I was raised reformed/conservative, later to find out that there isn't much of a difference..my mother was completely oblivious to Judaism before meeting my dad, who at least knew what he was missing out on, because of his father being a rabbi. Anyway, I was raised to scorn religion in all forms, allow those who wanted to practice it to do so, but to keep my nose out of a siddur so to speak. In my first year at yeshiva, the overwhelming defeat of the conservative philosophy was a wake-up call. "I was basically keeping a relegated copy of a religion" is what I thought midway into my first year. I then became a ba'al teshuvah, because of this and many other reasons. Judaism is the torah, they are one and the same...I know about the conservative movement inside and out, and I know that they base their lack of observance on the same convoluted logic that the reformers did in Ezra Hasofer's time(right before the second temple was built). Before the 2nd temple, Ezra amassed all the jews who had intermarrried, gerim, chrarerim, shtukim, and the like(see kedushin perek reveei, first mishnah). They basically say "yimes are changing, to the torah must change". This argument is nothing new. Times are always changing. In Greek times, everyone thought thye were superior because they had the theater, gymnasium, and whatever else, it's all just exterior flux, WE conceptually should not be affected by this, we are supposed to be a "light unto the nations", not hit with the darkness of them. I may come off as a zealot, but I'm not, this opinion of mine was formulated over years of painstaking learning and research, hard logic and openmindedness, eventually, I came to a number of conclusions. 1. How do the conservatves ever hppe to ensure continuity if they condone intermarriage? 2. Judaism cannot be the same if influenced greatly by foreign influences, so why condone it? 3. observing the mitzvos can't change, because their argument is illogical(saying that certain mitzvos don't apply anymore is illogical because we don't follow them for their logic, we follow them because they are min hashamayim, king augustus in Greece told the jews thye could follow any mitzva that made "sense" to him, does that mean we should continue to do this?), so, at the core of every mitzvah, is the same rationale, it's from Hashem, plain and simple. If you don't acknowledge that, that's a nice idea, maybe it's ethical monotheism, but it's not Judaism.

I'll address the ostensible male-bias in orthodoxy now.
Women are not obligated to perform time-related mitzvos(like davening 3 times for instance). Women do not have to (doesn't mean they can't), learn Torah, because their chief responsibility, accoridng to the torah, is child-rearing, since thye have a natural proclivity towards it(women are by nature, maternalistic). Men, are charged with fewer responsibilities, amazingly, the man's role is more glamorous, yes, but it is not as meritorious, nor is it as burdensome. The women are charged with breathing life into the next generation of yiddishkeit, to demand that thye do the same things as men, or that men do the same things as women, is not Jewish at all, it is 21st century thinking, and it is no differnet from what the Pagans did 1000 years ago, they too placed women on a higher pedastol. There is no superioroty, nor is there inferiority, only a difference. When a man learns Torah, he AND his wife are both rewared equally(see brachos 8a for the mention of rewared for torah learning). We mustn't let moern thinking cloud that whihc has sustained us for millenia, if we do, yiddishkeit as a whole is in danger.

[booklet0519]

I'll address the ostensible male-bias in orthodoxy now.
Women are not obligated to perform time-related mitzvos(like davening 3 times for instance). Women do not have to (doesn't mean they can't), learn Torah, because their chief responsibility, accoridng to the torah, is child-rearing, since they have a natural proclivity towards it(women are by nature, maternalistic). Men, are charged with fewer responsibilities, amazingly, the man's role is more glamorous, yes, but it is not as meritorious, nor is it as burdensome. The women are charged with breathing life into the next generation of yiddishkeit, to demand that thye do the same things as men, or that men do the same things as women, is not Jewish at all, it is 21st century thinking, and it is no differnet from what the Pagans did 1000 years ago, they too placed women on a higher pedastol. There is no superioroty, nor is there inferiority, only a difference. When a man learns Torah, he AND his wife are both rewared equally(see brachos 8a for the mention of rewared for torah learning). We mustn't let modern thinking cloud that which has sustained us for millenia, if we do, yiddishkeit as a whole is in danger.

u really ahd me being okay with ur post till the very end... women do tend to be more meternialistic...but i still have problems with forcing them to take a back role... u cna say whatever u want to say about an honor, more meerit etc... but i know girls in williamsburg WHO CAN'T EVEN READ RASHI!!!!!!!!!!!.... i can't emphasize enough how patheitc i find that, and how much we as a people have done... its fine if i want to stay home and raise 10 zillion kids- but to write that halacha FORBIDS me from learning GEMARA!!!!! forbids me from making kiddush in the presence of a male!!!!! there are even people who write that women can not study out of chumash ( as in williamsburg).....
optional things like maariv i can deal with... but to be a a schol which costantly has to defen itself using teachings of the RAv that we ARE in fact allowed to learn gemara is veyr frustrating...

it just seems wrong to cut off ONE HALFof our people form the joy of figuring out a sugya..... to make excuses for people who delight in brainwashing us to believe that we are in fatc honored for doing NOTHING_ is rediculous......

i dotn think this is somethign new from the 20th century... its just that when femenism began to take off, people began listening to women who just want to study.... maybe its something boys just cant undertsand

[PrUnE]

let conservaites do what they think is right and you do what you think is right, that should be the end of the dissciousson

[diamtricalduality]

let conservaites do what they think is right and you do what you think is right, that should be the end of the dissciousson
It's not as simple as that, we have the responsibility to help other jews, we can't simply sit iddly by, la ta'amod al dam rekahah, we can't think like that..

[diamtricalduality]

u really ahd me being okay with ur post till the very end... women do tend to be more meternialistic...but i still have problems with forcing them to take a back role... u cna say whatever u want to say about an honor, more meerit etc... but i know girls in williamsburg WHO CAN'T EVEN READ RASHI!!!!!!!!!!!.... i can't emphasize enough how patheitc i find that, and how much we as a people have done... its fine if i want to stay home and raise 10 zillion kids- but to write that halacha FORBIDS me from learning GEMARA!!!!! forbids me from making kiddush in the presence of a male!!!!! there are even people who write that women can not study out of chumash ( as in williamsburg).....
optional things like maariv i can deal with... but to be a a schol which costantly has to defen itself using teachings of the RAv that we ARE in fact allowed to learn gemara is veyr frustrating...

it just seems wrong to cut off ONE HALFof our people form the joy of figuring out a sugya..... to make excuses for people who delight in brainwashing us to believe that we are in fatc honored for doing NOTHING_ is rediculous......

i dotn think this is somethign new from the 20th century... its just that when femenism began to take off, people began listening to women who just want to study.... maybe its something boys just cant undertsand


My issue with conservatives is not a bias of any sort, but a failure to observe halacha, it is as simple as that. nowhere does it say in either torah sheba'al peh or bichtav that women are forbidden from studying gemorah, if women have time to study gemorah, it's halackilly acceptable, the rabbis of eastern europe made a din regarding it because they thought that it would lead to women wanting to be counted in a minyan, wear tefillin, or do other male-oriented mitzvos, which as we see now..it has, the rabbis were right, this has manifested itself into an ignoratn sect of people who wish to add nonsensical dogma to judaism. williamsburg is williamsburg..if you don't like it, don't go there, mea shearim is the same way..as long as what thye are doing isn't assur, we have no right to encroach upon their minhagim. women not being able to read rashi is thier own fault, if thye wish to learn..they will learn, you can't mkae learning it compulsory, because it is simply an optional undertaking, however I commend anyone who wishes to study torah.male or female. think about it..the whole idea of studying torah is to be able to apply it in everyday life, now tell me, how is not following commandments, and going against an accepted way of life that is millenia old leading a torah lifestlyle?? there is no logic in conservative followers, in my opinion, either you are observant or not, if you deny g-d or the torah's existence, that is your decision, but don't obfuscate the line that divides apikorsim and chareidim. you have must to learn about the history of feminism..just as zionism appeals to jews feminism appeals to women..you must know its roots before subscribing to it, anything else is blind following, which I abhor. feminism is nothing new, that is my first assetion, i can back this up by saying that documents from pagan civlillizations are on display and available at the library of congress, clearly indicating a striking resemblance to modern-day feminism..the same old same old..women have the same rights as men..this is ok, but when you say that thye are no different like feminists say? this becomes ridiculuous, if it is a secular philosophy you adhere to, then fine, but don't label it a torah-dik hashkofa, it simply isn't, not in the way it is practiced today. women have a right to stand up for themselves, don't get me wrong, i'm not a male-chauvinist, I don't think women should just hang on their husband's whim, actually, the torah says that sex is the right of the woman! anyway..being an eishes chayil is not being submissive, but it is not burning bras and crying oppression whenever some idiot makes a male-chauvinistic remark.

[PrUnE]

It's not as simple as that, we have the responsibility to help other jews, we can't simply sit iddly by, la ta'amod al dam rekahah, we can't think like that..

Who are you 2 say your way is right and thier way is wrong, who is anybody 2 say that?

[diamtricalduality]

Who are you 2 say your way is right and thier way is wrong, who is anybody 2 say that?

it's not my way, it's the torah's way, it's not MY opinion

[PrUnE]

it's not my way, it's the torah's way, it's not MY opinion

Yeah in whos torah? not mine? not theirs, just yours

[diamtricalduality]

Yeah in whos torah? not mine? not theirs, just yours

there's only one..rather, one with two parts to it, anything else is man-made, it's simple, judaism by definition is a belief in the torah, the same one given by H' at sinai, to moshe and 3 million others(acccording to some authorities, some say it was 5 million), anythi9ng else isn't the torah, it may be a nice thing to read, but it isn't the torah, there aren't any varying versions of it, either it's torah or not, as chasam sofer said, asur chadash min hatorah

[PrUnE]

well thats what u believe thats nice i guess

[diamtricalduality]

well thats what u believe thats nice i guess

No, it's not what I believe in, it's what the entire nation once believed in, the new movements that don't are just that..new, and therefore they need to prove to us why we should change, not the other way around

[PrUnE]

No, it's not what I believe in, it's what the entire nation once believed in, the new movements that don't are just that..new, and therefore they need to prove to us why we should change, not the other way around
The world has changed and i dont think its what the entire nation once belived in cuz modern orthadox is not the same judiasm as it was back then, so it has already changed, but whats a good reason for changing hmmmmm maybe that the world has changed, the world is alot different and every year it changes, Jews try to make the world fit the torah and not the other way around but the fact of the matter is that it doesnt work, there are alot of things that ppl argue over and over and no right answer cuz in todays time there are no right answers for some of those questions. The world has changed whether you'll admit it or not, times are different then when the torah was made and I think that is what judiasm fails to realize, though ppl say we do realize that they surely dont act like they do.

[diamtricalduality]

The world has changed and i dont think its what the entire nation once belived in cuz modern orthadox is not the same judiasm as it was back then, so it has already changed, but whats a good reason for changing hmmmmm maybe that the world has changed, the world is alot different and every year it changes, Jews try to make the world fit the torah and not the other way around but the fact of the matter is that it doesnt work, there are alot of things that ppl argue over and over and no right answer cuz in todays time there are no right answers for some of those questions. The world has changed whether you'll admit it or not, times are different then when the torah was made and I think that is what judiasm fails to realize, though ppl say we do realize that they surely dont act like they do.

Judaism, is conceptual, I don't care what others do, I follow halacha, not the times, the "fact" you just statred is totally unfounded, give me one example of a time when we had to adapt to modernity, never, we never had to, and we never will. you think this is something exclusive to our time? nooo, back in greece and rome, during the first enlightenment(as in ptolemy, socrates, etc..), people thought the EXACT same thing, they were wrong, and so are those who say it now. the point is, people say it doesn't fit with the modern times, because they'd rather watch porn, have a million girlfriends, and indulge in western hedonims, it's that simple, people don't want to follow torah, not because it's archaic, but because it shows people that they're wrong, and what they are doing is wrong, and who wants to be shown that?

[booklet0519]

[QUOTE=diamtricalduality]Judaism, is conceptual, I don't care what others do, I follow halacha, not the times, the "fact" you just statred is totally unfounded, give me one example of a time when we had to adapt to modernity, never, we never had to, and we never will. QUOTE]

ermmm... electricity? making grapes picked by oppressed chicano workers unkosher?men switching form robes to pants?
give me a few more minuetes i can come up with more, probobly

[PrUnE]

Judaism, is conceptual, I don't care what others do, I follow halacha, not the times, the "fact" you just statred is totally unfounded, give me one example of a time when we had to adapt to modernity, never, we never had to, and we never will. you think this is something exclusive to our time? nooo, back in greece and rome, during the first enlightenment(as in ptolemy, socrates, etc..), people thought the EXACT same thing, they were wrong, and so are those who say it now. the point is, people say it doesn't fit with the modern times, because they'd rather watch porn, have a million girlfriends, and indulge in western hedonims, it's that simple, people don't want to follow torah, not because it's archaic, but because it shows people that they're wrong, and what they are doing is wrong, and who wants to be shown that?

I think booklets answered that one pretty well no more needs 2 be said look up above his post should be the one before mine.

[diamtricalduality]

[QUOTE=diamtricalduality]Judaism, is conceptual, I don't care what others do, I follow halacha, not the times, the "fact" you just statred is totally unfounded, give me one example of a time when we had to adapt to modernity, never, we never had to, and we never will. QUOTE]

ermmm... electricity? making grapes picked by oppressed chicano workers unkosher?men switching form robes to pants?
give me a few more minuetes i can come up with more, probobly
electricty is simple it creates a spark, it's fire, there are other reaosn, but i'm not going to get into it, those examples are not modernity, they are superficialities that do not inherently, emphasis on inherently, change a person internally. also, there is nothing unhalachik about wearing pants, using electricity, but taking grapes from oppressed workers was something we needed to do, we had no other choice, there was no other way to get grapes, and as youy know, we require them for kiddush and other ceremonies. this is not to say that oppression is something we support, it of course is not, but do you care about oppression when you buy your clothing? i don't think the thought enters the minds of enough people, i'll wager there have been times you have bought clothing made in the 3rd world, and china,, without giving a thought to the oppressed children, exploited to make them.

[booklet0519]

[QUOTE=booklet0519]
electricty is simple it creates a spark, it's fire, there are other reaosn, but i'm not going to get into it, those examples are not modernity, they are superficialities that do not inherently, emphasis on inherently, change a person internally. also, there is nothing unhalachik about wearing pants, using electricity, but taking grapes from oppressed workers was something we needed to do, we had no other choice, there was no other way to get grapes, and as youy know, we require them for kiddush and other ceremonies. this is not to say that oppression is something we support, it of course is not, but do you care about oppression when you buy your clothing? i don't think the thought enters the minds of enough people, i'll wager there have been times you have bought clothing made in the 3rd world, and china,, without giving a thought to the oppressed children, exploited to make them.

im not saying i havn'tbiought clothes made in china by oppressed workers( although oppresion does depend on ur definition)..but maybe i shouldnt.... plus-- there were many other places to get grapes form- so infact many jews did not eat them...... electricity may be just a spark- but that was apoint of contention for a number of years as rabbis tried to classify it....

ps- prune-- im a girl :)

[diamtricalduality]

[QUOTE=diamtricalduality]

im not saying i havn'tbiought clothes made in china by oppressed workers( although oppresion does depend on ur definition)..but maybe i shouldnt.... plus-- there were many other places to get grapes form- so infact many jews did not eat them...... electricity may be just a spark- but that was apoint of contention for a number of years as rabbis tried to classify it....

ps- prune-- im a girl :)

that was only because rabbis were unfamiliar with the technology, as soon as thye become eduicated, they knew unequivocably that it was assur on shabbos. the grape issue..we all make mistakes, frum and non-frum alike, it is human nature, now I'm not justufying it, it was a horrible thing to do, but it does not mean we cannot learnf rom it, now, we can apply our mistake to the modern world, by not buying clothing or electronics manufactured by oppressed children, and yes, thye are oppressed, by any definition, they are payed next to nothing, kept in horrid conditions, and sometimes sold into prostitution

[NormalStinks]

diamtricalduality, the way you talk about how Judaism shouldn't change to adapt to the changing society makes me very angry. Even Mefarshim, like tosfot, darshin according to modern society. The truth is that changing society warrants religious change. When you talked about how the torah is unchanging, unarguable, and comes completely from god, a few posts ago, and then go on to talk about the unchanging way that halacha should be kept, you are hypocritical. Halacha that, supposedly, all orthodox jews keep meticulously has, included within it, many different opinions of how to do things. Take the halacha of eating kosher for example. The torah says that one can't eat meat and milk in the same meal. Many mefarshim explain that as meaning that one must wait 1 hour, 3hours, 6 hours, and other amounts of time in between meat and milk. Does the torah say that one must wait? no, it simply says that one cant eat meat and mik in the same meal. The torah's laws are all interpreted differenly and are no where near unchanging. In most religions there is a battle between the old traditional texts of the religon, and the modern laws on them. In both judaism and Christianity, the modern interpretations of the text has won. In islam on the other hand, in fundamentalist circles at least, their text, the quran, is the single basis for everything, and look how their extremist society turned out. Don't get me wrong, i have absolutely nothing against muslims, but I just think that times are changing and everyone in every religion must adjust accordingly and at least accept and respect the ways that other people adjust. Jews must respect how other jews keep halacha. Throwing rocks at cars on shabbos is not ok.
I'm not saying that driving on shabbos or eatng tref is halachically ok, on any darshin's standards, but i'm saying that one must accept the way other people keep judaism. I know a lot of orthodox people who keep halacha but don't feel any sort of connection with god or with judaism. if one feels more connected to god and judaism by singing prayers in an egalitarean minyan, more power to them. that is a better way to keep judaism than to meaninglessley mummble the words in an entirely halachic environment. If an orthodox jew finds meaning in orthodoxy too, more power to them. I'm an orthodox jewish girl, i go to a co-ed orthodox yeshiva, i keep halacha as best as i can, and i fully respect the way other people keep religion, just as they should respect how i do.

[Akeidas Yitzchak]

You can still be orthodox and go to a conservative beis kinesses. Its all in how you do things.

[RaRa]

Okay
I usto live in Brooklyn NY and when i did live there i would go to an all girls, uniform, orthodox school. When i moved to new jersey i was a part of an Orthodox co-ed Yeshiva and today i am in a Conservative high-school. I went from being orthodox to being conservative. Sometimes it really does bother me knowing i gave all of it up. But in the Conservative hs i cant be me. I cant be who i want to be. For example i was not bat mitzvad. I look at girls in my school and in my youth group wearing a talit and i just think about how wrong that is. Im Israeli so my parents do not agree with a woman going up to the torah. Its not the way i was raised and sometimes i felt left out not being a part of that. But ive grown to learn that i'm me and i do not agree with that nor will i ever. I honestly didnt know what conservatives were until i came to my current hs. I would do anything to go back to who i was. Hoping to hear your opinion about this.


I totally know where you are coming from, we moved and now I go to a reform (I know...:mad: ) temple but regardless of what the temple is I follow my rules that I think are right because religion is a personal thing and thats what feels right.