pants

[watercharmer]

so i'm taking a class in wear we learned that really pants are aloud by halacha since most of the world wears them. and it just happens to be that girls decided to wear skirts to show they are shomer miztvot, but i don't understand what one has to do w/ the other. i wear pants and i feel like sometimes i'm looked down opun while my friend who wears skirts it looked at like the nice frum girl. i mean sometimes i feel like my friend gets more action from teh guys but that all ok b/c she wearing a skirt! but if i talk to a guy i'm looked at as not religious b/c i'm wearing pants! it doesn't make sense! pants have nothing to do w/ it! i mean my freind is looked at as good while i'm not. i know my limits and i stick to them but other ppl don't and suddenly wearing a skirt makes up for that?? why don't ppl judge on how we act and not how we look?

[whuknu]

Ok so heres my point of view (from a skirt wearing girl):
So yeh if one wears loose pants, specifically meant for girls, there are orthodox rabbis that say thats ok. I have heard that sometimes wearing skirts is kinda like wearing a kippah- its to show ur an obersvant Jew. Not so sure I like that- just something I have heard.
Now, I am a strong believer that when one is representing a certain group of people (ie: if ur wearing a school t-shirt...) they should be acting in a way that people would not think bad things about the group they represent. One time, I had to meet with this really religious person from the community, he had the whole white shirt, black pants, velvet kippah, tzitzit sticking out look going on. Which was fine. But then he started acting like a real jerk. And it didnt make me think to highly of really frummy people. I know that he doesnt represent them all, but the truth is someone in his place should be acting more mechubad. But u see, its a misrepresentation, just like this: Some girls who wear skirts do things they shouldnt be, that doesnt mean we all do. I try to act the way a religious girl should be.
Why do people judge at all huh?

[watercharmer]

ya so i learned the whole issue w/ pants and loose pant and pant specificly for women and stuff but why is that the first thing poeple see?? like really i consider myslef a nice frum girl who happens to wear jeans but even teenagers my age look down on girls like that. but hey if i throw on pants i could suddenly do w/e i want b/c THAT means i frum?? i just really think that poeple shouldn't even jugde other poeple halachic status. they don't know what i do and how i act or daven. for all they know i coudl be more religous then the girl wearing a skirt. but they don't even give that a chance.

[Uninvited]

Try looking at it from a guy's perspective: Which would you find more attractive; a girl with a skirt or a girl with pants which very clearly defines a woman's curves, and therefore it may lead to something we don't want.[for guys]
So you're probably going to ask, "Why should our life revolve around how guys think, it's their problem."
The thing is it's not only protecting us [the guys], it's also protecting you from innapropiate touching which can lead to sex...which isn't something that you should be fond of before marriage...And if you're going to say that you can control yourself...ask yourself just how much control you will have in extreme circumstances...

[Uninvited]

I forgot my point....I'm not saying that anybody should look down at you and perhaps you are are a better person than some skirt-wearing flake, but I'm just telling you the reason [at least I think it's the reason] they wear skirts, and since an article of clothing is pretty noticeable,so if someone sees you what you're wearing goes pretty much to your head and defines you in their head and YOU become the pants-wearing flake, even if you aren't. I'n not saying they're right, I'm just you should understand where they're coming from. But if you're saying that the other skirt-wearers are getting more action, i don't see the point of being tznius if they aren't "using" it... just to show everybody else who doesnt' know em....well, I think that's not really illuminating...but that's what I've got to say....

[Blink]

Iv never heared of such a rediculous halachic argument; b/c they do it so its ok for us to do it? If we paskened like that then Judaism would look very different.

In regard to ur question, the world is superficial; thats it. what you wear shudnt say what your miztvot standard is, but the reality is, it does.
Same argument for what kind of kippah you wear.

[ElectricMayhem]

Blink, it is a valid halachic argument because it's not just a tznius issue, it's also an issue of Beged Ish.

I just heard a summary of the laws by Rabbi Akiva Tatz (on a tape about cosmetic surgery), so what I'm about to write is based on that, although I may have misinterpreted something he said, and I have a few additions from other things I have heard or seen. Some say that the tznius issue is basically taken care of if the pants are loose enough (we're not talking about really tight or even tight-ish pants here, those are clearly assur because they reveal the form of the leg). Of course, many would argue that anything that has any form of separation between the legs would still be a problem, which is probably why Ashkenazic rabbis and many Sephardic rabbis still forbid simply wearing pants while usually allowing sweatpants and the like at home.

There is also the problem of Beged Ish. If we define pants as mens' garments, it would be assur for women to wear them, even in private, just like a man cannot wear a dress, even in private. However, considering that it is generally accepted practice in society for women to wear pants, and most men would not be caught dead in that type of garment, it is clearly women's clothes, which is why most rule that it's not Beged Ish, as far as I can tell. There's also the issue of non-gender-specific clothes, like sweatpants, and I'm not sure if that would be easier or more difficult to permit, but the fact is that at least that much seems to be generally accepted, as even religious girls wear sweatpants or flannels or whatever as pajamas or even in public with a skirt over it.

However, the tznius issue is still a big deal, and I've never heard of any Ashkenazi posek allowing pants to be worn in public, though as Rabbi Tatz said, there are Sephardic poskim who have permitted it.

By the way, whether or not pants are permitted, the fact is that skirts are well-defined as girls' clothes, so naturally a girl is perceived as more feminine if she is wearing a skirt. Generally, the Torah philosophy is very supportive of anything that solidifies gender definition, so wearing a skirt could be part of that push for outward expression of femininity.



P.S. If you're really interested in the issue, there is a survey of the topic (I've never read it, so I can't really recommend it, but it's at least somewhere to start) in one of the volumes (sorry I can't be more specific) of the Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society put out by RJJ, which is found in many shul and school libraries (I know my school and shul have copies).

[Blink]

At the end of the day, I dont know of any women or girls who are serious about their religion that wear pants

[ElectricMayhem]

Agreed. But I'm just saying that you can't dismiss the role of society in this specific context, whether this opinion is generally followed or not.

[booklet0519]

At the end of the day, I dont know of any women or girls who are serious about their religion that wear pantsi know this post sorta died down a month ago, but i just had to post....

what the heck are you takling about???
i wear pants, shorts, tank tops whatever- does that automatically diqualify me from being a "serious jew"

and anyway-- what do you mean by that anyway?
by serious do u mean that i spend a lot of time each day thinking about god and religion, and my personal beliefs and faith- cuz i do....
do u mean that i keep shabbat and kosher- cuz i do..
do u mean that i go to yeshiva, and spend at least an hour studiying gemara with my dad every shababt just because i want to???? cuz i do...
do u mean that i dress frumpy- alright.... there you got me- i dress like i want to, whether in a skirt or in jeans, i dress any way that i feel confident in- i keep it appropriate for the location and ppl i will be with, although generally in a "sophistocatedly casual" genre

i may use a different standard of modesty than the chareidi girls from williamsburg, but that DEFINATELY doesn't make me a nonjew, or even an unserious jew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[ElectricMayhem]

She learns gemara and still says she's a serious Jew...oy...(just kidding)

booklet, maybe you prefer not to admit it, but Blink does have a point. Those who are really serious about religion will always try to do everything right, or at least admit that they're doing something wrong and aspire to one day reach the correct level.

Let's look back at your comment: "i may use a different standard of modesty than the chareidi girls from williamsburg..." There may be multiple standards of modesty, but there's one standard of tznius - what the Torah mandates and how Chazal extend it (and the percentage that's directly Min Hatorah is a lot more than most people think). Sure, there is some debate about what exactly are the parameters, but the vast majority is pretty clear. Unless you say that the Torah definition of tznius is right, and you just don't live up to it, there's a fundamental problem. And you clearly believe that what you're doing is correct for you - "i keep it appropriate" - which is wrong. Every Jew has an unquestionable chiyuv to fulfill every Mitzvah that applies to him or her. We can't necessarily live up to that level, but we must at least acknowledge what the correct path is.

Wow, I seem to be on a rampage of harsh posts lately, don't I? Well, then, let me temper that comment with this: I certainly don't claim to be perfect in every respect. I have quite a few major flaws that absolutely kill me every time I go to daven, and I think about how hypocritical I am, sinning one moment and praying for daily needs the next. But I also don't pretend that my aveiros are just fine. In short: no one's perfect, so don't pretend to be, and that applies to everyone, including myself.

Oh - and if I misinterpreted you, then I'm sorry, please correct me.

[Elvira]

i think EM is pretty much on, but with a catch. connecting to god and judaism is not about 'right' and 'wrong' -- it is asobut what you are ready for, and what u r not yet ready for

yes, u should respect even what you might not hold by and keep in mind that u may come aroudn to it -- but lets leave the guilt and "i must admit i am doing wrong/sinning" out of this -- that just makes your hole relatihship w/ god so negative and coercive.

mitzvot should be about being inspired and finding hashiem in the world -- and yes, the torah and wisdomc of chazal deserve our respect and awe in their entirety --- but i don't think anyone should label themselves 'wrong' for where they r not yet holding

see your strength and celbrate it -- u go booklet! i think we would all get much closer to god and observance if we focused on the joy of our connecting rather than falling on the swords of our failures...

[ElectricMayhem]

Elvira, maybe you got the wrong impression from my tone. I didn't mean to say that people should be criticized for failing or that there should be a lot of negative feeling about "I'm a bad person because I'm doing wrong." In fact, Pirkei Avos says you should never think of yourself as a bad person! But there has to be an aspiration toward an ever-higher level, and part of that is admitting that it's there. Saying "I'm good enough" is never acceptable, whether you're a simple high school kid or the Gadol Hador. And that tone of "I'm good enough" was what I was getting from booklet's post. In fact, that was really the point of the entire post - "you don't think I'm good enough? I am! There's nothing wrong here!" (Not an exact quote, but that's the message I got out of it.) Yes, booklet did point out that she has her strong points, and we can all appreciate her accomplishments in the areas she listed. However, you don't get any smarter by taking the same class over and over, and you don't become a better, more spiritual person by just continuing what you're doing. There have to be goals, and in the areas the person is not ready to improve, there still has to be at least an admission that there is a better way of doing things, even if he or she is not ready for it yet. For example, I admit that watching TV is mostly pure bitul zman (though I do feel that every so often there is something valuable to watch); however, I'm not on a level where I can give it up completely. And by the way, having the higher level in mind does help you to achieve it in the long run.

[watercharmer]

Thank you!!Thats the way i feel also!! good to know i'm not the only one.

[booklet0519]

em-- i am also not saying i am perfect

what i was actually objecting to is the sterotype that only ppl in black hats are serious about religion- that ppll like me can be in( in ur eyes) lax about cretain mitzvot and still care about judaism

the term serious jew really bothers me in general- i forget who said this, but soemone mentioned being looked at differently weraing pants instead if skirts... ppl assune that she is less religious

but really our terms are screwy--- is someone trying to stay on judaism as best as they can at college with funthings on shabbat etc and occaiionally failing a bad jew? no- he's a trying and struggling jew, adn every struggle wins sometimes adn not others..

i am gonn amake a plea for anyone realding this the the terms serious adn religios dissapear from this discussion. after all, christians adn muslims can be religious- it just means being commited to religion ( not necessarily observant, which i concur is a necessary word) serious is somethign that we just cant tell on the outside, adn everyone sets themselves challenges appropriate for themselves-- my aunt, who like me weras pants adn things - moved 3000 miles to california for her husbands job, only to discover that the local synogogue had no hebrew school adn 50 kdis got practically no jewish education at home or school-- so she started a school!!!! she is serious about judaism in her way, adn all of us are serous about judaism in our own way, but if we could pleaes stop labling ppl seroios or not

sorry this is alittle harsh, but really-- its not about me... i completley agree that i am not perfect, but it mbothers me to have such judging ords in every single post

[SNs]

there is too much focus on being tzniut these days . whatever happened to being a nice person.
speaking lashon hara is like one of the worst sins but girls arent ostrecized form certain communiteis if they do it, but they are if they wear jeans..
who do u think is guna get punished more. a mean, spiteful, rude, obnoxious person. or a girl who is shomer most mitzvot but not tzniut

[whuknu]

i wear pants, shorts, tank tops whatever- does that automatically diqualify me from being a "serious jew"

i may use a different standard of modesty than the chareidi girls from williamsburg, but that DEFINATELY doesn't make me a nonjew, or even an unserious jew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Thats not just diferent from williamsburg girls, most of my MO friends dont dress in tank tops and short shorts, but alot do wear pants... there is a diference (not that Im trying to tell you that what you do is wrong or anything)

And think about the boys- its very hard to turn away when they seem a girl dressed untzniusly. And its very difficult to never leave your home. Im not talking meah shearim guys, I mean its hard for a MO boy to walk around, because to our standards girls are dressing less and less tzniusly.
And furthermore, dressing tzniusly isnt just so the guys can walk around without having to worry, its also for you (the girls). I find that dressing tzniusly me in (more) control. Guys think twice before saying things they shouldnt be saying to me. (This isnt relavant to the pants, I know).

(NOTE: to anyone who wheres the type of clothese I mentioned in the above post, please do not take offense, my post is not meant to offend anyone.)

[booklet0519]

there is too much focus on being tzniut these days . whatever happened to being a nice person.
speaking lashon hara is like one of the worst sins but girls arent ostrecized form certain communiteis if they do it, but they are if they wear jeans..
who do u think is guna get punished more. a mean, spiteful, rude, obnoxious person. or a girl who is shomer most mitzvot but not tzniut

i completely agree -- LOL

[ElectricMayhem]

who do u think is guna get punished more. a mean, spiteful, rude, obnoxious person. or a girl who is shomer most mitzvot but not tzniut
I dunno. Why don't you ask God? He's the only One Who knows which Mitzvos are more important!

But IMHO, the two are irrelevant to each other - one is about view of self, and one is about view of others. Tznius is meant to engender a feeling of being a person first, not just a body. It creates a sense that the body is nothing more or less than a tool for serving Hashem. This tool must be kept in good condition and used as necessary; a workman doesn't go around showing off his hammer collection, but keeps his hammers in good condition and uses them for his job.

On the other hand, being nice to others is about valuing them as people. We have a chiyuv to love fellow members of Klal Yisrael as much as we do ourselves, and we have to treat others with respect and kindness whether or not they are Jewish. However, that has nothing to do with Tznius - you can view your body the right way but have no respect for others, and you can view and act towards others the right way but not have the right attitude about yourself. Neither one makes the other one just fine; they exist in totally independent spheres!

However, that said, I think Tznius is even more primary than the way one treats others; Tznius is supposed to contribute toward a sense of Anivus, which then impacts one's actions toward others. If executed properly, in thought and deed as well as in dress, Tznius should lead to treating others the right way, so those who dress modestly but don't act correctly toward people are even misunderstandiing Tznius! Maybe if there was more emphasis on the non-clothes-related aspects of Tznius, which FYI apply to both genders, observance of both Mitzvos would increase.

[ElectricMayhem]

what i was actually objecting to is the sterotype that only ppl in black hats are serious about religion- that ppll like me can be in( in ur eyes) lax about cretain mitzvot and still care about judaism
Maybe understanding where it's coming from will help you be a little more understanding of the people who think this way. (I'm not saying that this is the right way to think, but I'm saying that there is a basis for it.)

When you put on your clothes in the morning, you may not realize it, but you're making a statement. If you put on a suit (or the female equivalent in formality), you're lending respect to whatever situation you are dressing for, whether it's work, a meeting with someone important, a job interview, or Shabbos. If you put on shorts and a T-shirt, you're saying that you don't really care how you look, and you just want to be comfortable. This can get even more extreme - for example, in certain New Jersey cities, wearing blue can mean you're a member of the Crips, while red can signify a member of the Bloods. (For those who don't know, the Crips and the Bloods are two rival gangs.) People wear Jewish stars, Christian crosses, and Islamic crescents around their necks as symbols of faith, and even a change of shoes or putting on/taking off a belt can change the entire mood of an outfit.

When it comes to Judaism, what you wear also makes a big statement. Black hats or equivalent headgear, long coats, white knee socks, and dress shoes are specifically meant to show that the wearer lives in a society that attempts to restore the attitudes and level of observance that existed in the ghettos/shtetlach in Europe. Torah-observant Modern Orthodox clothes reflect the times while remaining within the bounds of Tznius, which is harmonious with the position of Torah Umadda, accepting cultural modifications while sticking within the framework of Torah. However, dressing in clothes that do not respect Hilchos Tznius is taken as an indication that one puts either secular culture or one's own desires above Halacha, which is more in line with the philosophy of the Conservative Movement and even touches on Reform theology.

This is probably not how it's meant to be taken - but is this assessment really so far off? Are girls who don't follow Hilchos Tznius just "not on a level" to take it on, or are they putting their own wishes above Halacha? If you say you're not really making a statement, or you just don't care, that means you don't care about Halacha, which has to be actively pursued.

It's something to think about.

[SNs]

just becasue something isnt tzniut doesnt mean that its showing off your body or makes u look ready for action.
theres such a big diffrence between dressing inapropriatly as a jew, and not dressing tzniut.

[booklet0519]

its true.. i guess i just get so cuahgt yup in the history of the streimel that i tend to get distracted when i see any black hatted garbed perosn

a streimel was originally a hat belonging to the polish nobility. jews, living in their ghettos saw it as a mark of prominence adn outside culture. they adopted the hat as a mark of assimilation. it was only upon their immigration to america, adn their persistanc ein not changing even the hats they wear, that it became a symbol for religion adn not assimilation

sorry for the history lesson :)

ur right - i agree that it presents a certain mood, ad i gues si feel that for myself, i am able to lend decorum without such rigid lines- nto that i dojtn care about halacha, but that while i dont diminish tzniut- i think we see it with a differnet goal

it seems to me that many posters here reagrd it s the face you show to the world which demonstrates that u are observant

to me its more about modesty( one second.. ket me explain) its abou7t teaching 6 years olds not to dress like sluts, its about not wearing clothes that are so low cut as to be the sole focus of the fabric, its about keeping the externakl from being so important( almost the opposite of the way ur position seems to me)

its about a confidence in urself.. as i haev said before- when my clothes dont fit me well, i walk unsure adn nervours.. when my clothing fits me a little better , i am able to try adn let my real personalaiy shine thru

the most commen biblical quote pressing women to be tzanua is " an the glory of the kings daughter is inside ..." -- without disrespetc to anyone or anyones views, i just wnat to throw out he idea that its not so muhc what u wear as how u wear it

wearinbg a pair of swaetpants to play ball just doesnt haev the same sexual feelign as deliberatly low , rolled up ( to expose lower leg) , adn possiobly with the draw strign hanging out swaet pants [ not to get into teh whole middle gorund ebwtween the two exteremes)

ppl who say "pants-- shes a non observant jew" are rally dismissing entire societal cues on the differetn wasy to present urseklf

its 1 AM, so i may not be making much sense, adn i am probobly rambing and typing very poorly, but let me know what ya'll think abut it....

[whuknu]

just becasue something isnt tzniut doesnt mean that its showing off your body or makes u look ready for action.
theres such a big diffrence between dressing inapropriatly as a jew, and not dressing tzniut.
you are correct. If a woman is not Jewish she doesnt need to keep the laws of tzniut, but she can (and many do) dress modestly. This doesnt mean she has to cover her elbows, but rather than going for the super revealing shirt, she may go for the one with the higher neck.
But, we are diferent. Why? Cuz we are jewish. so? we are an am kadosh. And we arent supposed to do things like the rest of the world. we are supposed to cover our bodies so that the world doesnt see them, so that what the world does see is that this is what we do. we respect ourselves and our bodies. But we take it a step further than any modestly dressed non Jew.
Whether we like it or not we are not like the rest of the world

[booklet0519]

we respect ourselves and our bodies. But we take it a step further than any modestly dressed non Jew.
Whether we like it or not we are not like the rest of the world

umm... have u seen the way hindu, muslim, amish, quacker, puritan, people dress/ed????????????????????????/

[SNs]

what you're saying is chukat hagoyim not tzniut,and jeans arent considered chukat hagoyim

[ElectricMayhem]

ur right - i agree that it presents a certain mood, ad i gues si feel that for myself, i am able to lend decorum without such rigid lines- nto that i dojtn care about halacha, but that while i dont diminish tzniut- i think we see it with a differnet goal

it seems to me that many posters here reagrd it s the face you show to the world which demonstrates that u are observant

to me its more about modesty( one second.. ket me explain) its abou7t teaching 6 years olds not to dress like sluts, its about not wearing clothes that are so low cut as to be the sole focus of the fabric, its about keeping the externakl from being so important( almost the opposite of the way ur position seems to me)

its about a confidence in urself.. as i haev said before- when my clothes dont fit me well, i walk unsure adn nervours.. when my clothing fits me a little better , i am able to try adn let my real personalaiy shine thru

the most commen biblical quote pressing women to be tzanua is " an the glory of the kings daughter is inside ..." -- without disrespetc to anyone or anyones views, i just wnat to throw out he idea that its not so muhc what u wear as how u wear it
There's still a point that's sorely missing here. Why am I Shomer Negiah? Is it because I'm afraid that I'll give a girl a high-five and because of that have sex with her? I may have temptations, but I'm not that pathetic. Understood, it's meant as a barrier, but ultimately the reason I don't touch a girl is because the Pasuk says, "Ve'el Isha Benidas Tum'asah Lo Sikrav Legalos Ervasah." I could give all kinds of beautiful explanations for Negiah, or Tznius, or a million other different Mitzvos and Halachos, but Sof Davar Hakol Nishma, the reason I'm doing it is that it's a chiyuv from Hashem (or Hashem through Chazal), and that's all I need. It's not up to us to make the rules or decide that the reasons don't apply to us. I'm not free to ignore the Mitzvos of Matzah and Maror because I think I can have a more "meaningful" Seder through fasting and meditation; Hashem said I have to do those Mitzvos, so that's what I do! The same applies to Tznius - maybe you think you can be in the spirit of the law, but Torah demands adherence to the letter of the law first and foremost, and that's missing no matter how you rationalize it.

By the way, I was once in a group where we were studying Hilchos Negiah, and one person said he doesn't believe in it and he's not Shomer Negiah, to which another responded, "Fine, and I'm not Shomer Chanukah!" His point was that you can't just decide that you're exempt from a Mitzvah even if you have some "justification" - and keep in mind, people only justify doing Aveiros that are pleasurable, like Negiah, while no one would dare question something that's not a real burden, like Chanukah (even though Negiah is Min Hatorah and Chanukah is Miderabanan)! That is enough to prove that none of the justifications are real, and people who ignore these Mitzvos are just making lame excuses and rationalizing in order to do something that feels good.

[ElectricMayhem]

SNs, whuknu wasn't saying anything about Chukas Hagoyim. Her point was that our lives are defined by Torah - not by anyone else's standards. Hence, we define modesty by the Torah definition - not by what society believes is appropriate.

[whuknu]

umm... have u seen the way hindu, muslim, amish, quacker, puritan, people dress/ed????????????????????????/I had a feeling someone was gonna say that... see what EM said in his last post (thanks EM).

I agree with EM's point before that about keeping the laws regarding negiah. Theres no "I accept this mitzvah, but reject that mitzvah." There IS however a point where one has not kept a certain mitzvah up till this point, and then perhaps maybe he decides to take it upon himself. Now we cannot simply do this because "I feel like touching my boyfriend this week, but next week maybe I will take it upon myself to keep the laws of negiah."
Until a short while ago I used regular toothpaste on shabbat, you know the kind you have to shmear, and then a couple of weeks ago I was in a halacha shiur in which we discussed the use of toothpaste and the like on shabbat, now I knew that I couldnt use regular toothpaste on shabbat but I thought "what do I need this for, my whole family uses regular toothpaste on shabbat, etc." But several things this year have opened my eyes to halacha and their importance. And this week I went out and bought the really gross "shabbat toothpaste."
Why am I telling you this story? Because, I accepted this halacha unto myself, simply because it is halacha, and I am a Jew and maybe once I used to have problems with this stuff, and sometimes I still do, but I love being a Jew and keeping the laws as best as I can.
Just to add, yesterday in the same class (same halacha teacher) a girl asked a certain question on if something was permitted and the Rav said it is completely assur. I will not reveal the topic, but he said it was forbidden due to endangerment of oneself. But this was something that the girl (as well as most of the girls in the class) were doing due to the actual need for it. And she argued with him and asked him what is she going to do now, and he said it doesnt matter what she does as long as she doesnt do the forbidden act. She continued to argue with him, and he said to her something along of the lines of "I see you have trouble with halacha but you have to keep it, just like you have to keep shabbat."
Why am I telling you that story? Because even if there is a need for the halacha to be broken, you cant break it (at least not without the psak halacha). However, a halacha may be difficult for one to keep. In which case, perhaps one should learn more on it and try to understand it better. Thats what I did with the toothpaste thing, I listened to the Rav's shiur on why its forbidden, and mid-class I just felt that I needed to start to keep this.
IMPORTANT: to anyone who may think this means "Wow I have to keep all the halachot I havent been keeping starting NOW" remember that taking on too many mitzvot at once can be harmful to one's religious health.

As for negiah being deoraita... many interpret the pasuk you mentioned differently EM... Some say that you can touch girls (like tap them on the shoulder, I have even had rabbanim tap me on the shoulder) but you cant come close other than that. Others interpret it to mean, no touching, no talking, no looking. In our circles more take it to mean no touching, but talking and associating with eachother is ok. If I recall correctly, I believe the laws of negiah are gederim, however making them halacha today. I could be wrong though... (Doesnt that make the actual laws of negiah derebanan?)
This is something that should be learned or at least acknowledged beofore taking on this mitzvah, because if one takes it on and says its deoraita (lets say for arguments sake its derebanan) and its derebanan then well, its just not good. Not that laws that are derebanan should be taken lightly, but one should still know. (Wow I should learn this).

Now, we were talking about pants, right? Ok sorry for making this so long........

[ElectricMayhem]

As for negiah being deoraita... many interpret the pasuk you mentioned differently EM... Some say that you can touch girls (like tap them on the shoulder, I have even had rabbanim tap me on the shoulder) but you cant come close other than that. Others interpret it to mean, no touching, no talking, no looking. In our circles more take it to mean no touching, but talking and associating with eachother is ok. If I recall correctly, I believe the laws of negiah are gederim, however making them halacha today. I could be wrong though... (Doesnt that make the actual laws of negiah derebanan?)
This is something that should be learned or at least acknowledged beofore taking on this mitzvah, because if one takes it on and says its deoraita (lets say for arguments sake its derebanan) and its derebanan then well, its just not good. Not that laws that are derebanan should be taken lightly, but one should still know. (Wow I should learn this).
Just to clear it up a little, the two main opinions are those of Rambam and Ramban. Rambam says it's Assur Mide'oraisa, while Ramban says it's Miderabanan. However, Rambam emphasizes the idea of it only being an issue Bederech Chiba [in an affectionate manner], while Ramban is not as clear on that point. Therefore, Rambam says it's a more serious sin, but Ramban is a little broader in its application.

We generally accept that Derech Chiba is the only way in which Negia is forbidden; however, we have to define what Derech Chiba is. Rav Moshe permits returning a handshake if one is certain he/she doesn't "get anything" out of it, and perhaps some Poskim are even more lenient (though I've never heard of them). Additionally, touching through a material alleviates the Issur to some degree, which is why some would permit tapping on the shoulder, as it's hard to call that Derech Chiba and it goes through clothes.

In terms of talking and associating, I've never heard of anyone give a technical Issur, though there are strong recommendations against it from Chazal, such as the famous Mishnah in Pirkei Avos, "Al Tarbeh Sicha Im Ha'isha," "Don't talk too much to a woman," which is actually said in reference to one's own wife, Kal Vachomer with regard to others. However, even if there's no technical Issur with just talking, there are still issues (for guys at least) such as "getting enjoyment" which is a very serious sin and can emerge from talking or especially looking, and all the more so looking at a girl who's not dressed modestly. (In all fairness, of course, Chazal say that deriving pleasure from looking at any part, even those that are absolutely Mutar to expose, is just as bad as looking at the most forbidden areas.) So it's a balance that has to be weighed carefully in each individual case.

Just my own thought: sometimes it is better to talk at least somewhat, because if a guy has no contact with girls, they end up just being objects in his mind, and it's much easier to get carried away with fantasizing if they're not viewed as real people.

Sorry to carry on, but it is a big topic, and if anyone's interested in talking about it further, maybe we should open up a new thread on this, or reopen one of the several old ones.

[booklet0519]

question: its a little off topic but...
i know that it is forbidden to daven while there are immodestly dressed women around-- if there are 2 men adn one sees pants ona women as immodest adn one doesn't- could he daven there, or would he too be obligated to leave

it doesnt relaly matter-0- i was just curios

[ElectricMayhem]

If it's immodest, you can't daven there. If it's modest, you can. If one's rav tells him pants are OK and the other's rav tells him they're not, each follows what his rav said. Practically, that means one will stay and one will leave.

In a minyan situation, I would assume that everyone would respect those who accept the more stringent opinion, and they would all move.

However, keep in mind that this is a highly unlikely occurrence, as only a very small minority of Poskim, and only Sephardi Poskim as far as I've heard (which eliminates 75% of Jews right there), say that pants are not considered immodest. It's generally accepted that wearing pants is a breach of Tznius.