a philisophical discussion

[Digital Messiah]

well i was reading a book and it posed this situation/question:

If God is all knowing so that he can see the future of everything, even himself. then how do we have free choice. but also, if god can see his future then he cant change it because that would change what he sees because he is all knowing. but if he cant change his own future how is he still all powerful? its like saying, can god make a rock that he cant pick up? yes, go can make anything. no, god cant cause by limiting himself would take away from his own godyness.

what do you guys think?
i think we need to disscuss stuff like this in school!

[kiyara]

we do need to discuss this stuff in school, and not just as a measly elective in senior year "jewish philosophy"

Well to try to answer your Q, God doesn't actually have a future or a past - he exists outside the limits of time. I know that doesn't make sense, but our human minds are unable to comprehend it because we ARE in the limits of time, and we have a past and a future.

As for our free will, God does see the entire future, and we do have free will. We don't see our future, so we have the option of choosing what we want, but God knows what we will choose. It is fre will for us, because we cannot see past the present, but God know what we will choose because apparently for Him everything is happening at once.

Do you get that? I think I do, but it almost seems too simple.

[Bongo_Dude]

paradox paradox paradox paradox - that answers your question (on one level). There really is no way for anyone on this site to satisfactorily answer that - G-d is a concept well beyond out understanding, and trying to grasp it will do one of two things - make you go insane, or diminish the worth of HaShem in your eyes. Not that I'm saying its wrong to think about these things - its great for your mind, but only to a point. I may sound like I'm spewing crap, but I'm really serious. We're human, and divinity is one level above our conciousness - if you push yourslef too hard, something is going to go wrong.

My other answer, which is probably no better than the first, is that G-d exists beyond our concept of time. I think the s'forno on the first pasuk in the torah says that "B'Reishit" is the beginning of time. I asked myself "How can it be the beginning of time, if G-d is eternal, yet he's creating time??" Here's my explanation, take it or leave it: G-d and man have two different frames of time, yet they don't have separate names. If you are talking about the simple idea of second, minutes, etc., that is human time, and that is what was created at B'reishit. Divine time, the frame in which HaShem exists, is more a measure of existence, and thats how G-d can be eternal. Just my little shtick, hope it sits well with someone other than myself, or I might be going insane

- B.D.

[Digital Messiah]

well atliest somone agrees with me that philosophy is a big part of what us teens think about, even if we dont think it is philosophy.

now your answere ive heard many times but it still dosnt cut it for me. im starting to realize that its no somthing that can just be answere simply, but a question that will be ask long after i die. i also think that the question really cant be answered because since our minds cant conprehend the way god "lives" then no real answere with proof can be given. also, thanks kiyara for the answere its good to know that im not the only one worried about my existence (sp?)

[Bongo_Dude]

Since I guess u didnt see my post when u responded and u basically said what I did I'll just ditto that

- B.D.

[Mr. X]

Firstly I'd like to agree that philosophy needs to be discussed in school. I've actually had philosophical conversations with my principals and teachers one on one, but never really in an open forum. If one really wants a philosophical convo with a teacher they should just go up and ask, that's what they're for. Its harder to opinionate yourself in front of your peers.

But about the question. If you look at Psalm 90 it discusses how God is not bound by time. God is a finite being who we cannot comprehend and will never be able to be. It may even be futile to be trying to comprehend God, but at the same time it is good to think so we can try to get a better understanding, even though we will never truly understand. I too question things about God, but then I realize that there are some things that I just cannot understand. Right now with religion and the idea of God I am trying to put the things I know and just get myself comfortable enough to feel good enough about things.

[raistlin]

Finally. I've been waiting to start a blog like this but I just haven't had the time.

I DEFINETELY AGREE that philosophy should be studied in high shcool. We think about this stuff, it really bothers us. I think that if anyone who is a teen is really bothered by something it's this stuff. This is something that I accede is something to be genuinely upset and bothered by.

As for the issue being addressed. I recently heard a story that a town rabbi called a local atheist into his office one day and said to the atheist "I have a confession to make. I don't believe in Gd." The atheist was stunned. "You don't believe in God? how could you be a rabbi?" So the rabbi responed, "Yes, that's right. The same Gd you don't believe in I don't believe in."

I think this story is moyredik (a work some of my teachers used - it means it makes a great point but it's more fun to say than the English, try it). Everyone here seems to believe in Gd which honestly is the first step in any discussion of this stuff. The question is, tho, what do you believe in? In pretty much all the other posts you guys have limited human intellect, a very humbling but paralyzing thing to do. I agree. We cannot understand Gd. but we can define him. We can specify what it is we are talking about even if we can't actually wrap our minds around the idea and truly "understand" or picture what it is we're talking about. What is Gd to you? Which Gd or concept of Gd do you believe in? I don't want to shift the focus of this discussion completely, I think we can and should come back to main topic (a great one) once we hear from people on this point. I hope you agree. If not, it's cool. I'll throw in my cents anyway.

[Mr. X]

God created us. From there I don't know much else, b/c HOW can I? Through religion we get these great IDEA's about God, but how can anybody be 100% about anything. All I know is some greater being put us here, so to be thankful I thank him through prayer (my own words, not the siddur) for lifes daily qualities. But right now I think religion to be more of a cult type thing. Right now for me Judaism is more of a guiding light of morality, so I take it and try to make myself a better moral person, not really taking its laws so seriously. I just hate being bound by restrictions SUPPOSEDLY made by God. The only thing I know about these restrictions is that humans made them even more restricting. Which is why right now in my life I try to be a moral person, b/c I take what this religion teaches us and try to make myself a better person from its lessons. Those are my 2 cents on my idea of God and religion.

[Bongo_Dude]

Your being bound to restrictions supposedly made by a G-d that supposedly exists. You took one step, and rejected the other. It is all based on belief though, so what you decide you want is what you will have - there is no solid solid proof in either case.

- B.D.

[Mr. X]

I believe in a God b/c this world is to good to be true without Him. I don't know anything else about this God though. All I know (or think I guess) is that He created us.

[magniv123]

bongodude -- i cant say i agree with you all too much. i mean i do agree with the concept, but it doesnt answer the question at all.
x -- yes, God isnt bound by time, as talked about in various tehillim specifically the one you mentioned. but i think that doesnt totally answer the initial question either.

the question of free will doesnt necessarily have to do with a course of chronological events -- if it did, then x's answer would fit and satisfy. but i think it doesnt.

take personal thoughts. we believe that God hears/knows what we are thinking, right? and if we have the free will to think different things then how is it possible that God is controlling our thoughts, per se?

heres how i see it.
i think that yes God def. knows what we did what we are doing and what we will do, he already knows the outcome and the future and the past and present and all that because God is above the grasping hold of time like x said.
but where do we fit in?
we are NOT above time. so in our minds WE ARE DECIDING on our own what to do think and belive and feel. i mean if you were just like okay God controls me completely so i have no choice or say in the matter and then you just were like im gonna sit here on this chair and not get up and if God wants me to get up so He'll make me stand. BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT GOD WANTS SO THEREFORE YOU ARE MAKING THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO SIT THERE.
make sense?
we have free will because we DONT know the outcome. if we did know the future then we wouldnt have the choice would we? however God is in a completely different realm than the one we are found in so He already knows.

philosophy def is important. i think its a huge core of judaism....nice thread.


magniv!

[magniv123]

oh about the rock issue.

so if God creates a rock that "He cannot lift" then the nature of that rock is to be unlifted. If God lifted it then that created nature would be changed and it wouldnt be the unliftable rock anymore, it would be a smaller lighter one. follow? so when the quetsion is posed if God can or cannot create a restriction for Himself the answer is yes, except that you cant look at those things as restrictions because He DID CREATE IT TO BE THAT WAY AND THAT IS ITS NATURE. its not even a matter of can or cant anymore.

-----
something a little different, but kinda connected, about all the "lifting" and "knowing" and "controlling" that God does...
God is not a human. He's not even a "thing" so to speak. Hes in a totally other realm out of our reach and understanding. On the other hand, all these verbs, including mentionings even in Tanach, are all human traits, right?
So what does that mean? Does God really stretch out HIs hand? He doesnt have a hand, right?

I think that we just put these human traits -- like personification -- to God so we can understand Him more,

what do you guys think? its always been something ive pondered.



magniv!

[raistlin]

magniv and kiyara - u guys gave essentially the same answer. Basically you're saying that free will is a ruse, a fake. When Gd said we have free will he tricked because we only think we have free will, we don't actually have it. The problem is that Gd said that we have free will. If Gd said it, it's true, completely and absolutely, not only in some given perspective. Gd can't lie, not because lying is bad or wrong and he is bound by the moral code which dictates that (which makes no sense - something else binding Gd), but because if he says it, if he declares it, it IS true, it becomes reality automatically. Therefore, we really do have free will. So we're back to DM's question.

BD - i think there is an answer, a solution to the paradox, but before that two things: 1) i think you diminish divinity when you say it's one level above our consciousness. It's infinitely beyond us. A technicality but i feel important point. 2) Your different notions of time are intriguing. In fact, physicists can't account as easily for phenomena that happened during and right after the Big Bang using regular time as with something called imaginary time. It's counting time using imaginary numbers, you know, i? square root of negative one? Makes sense, doesn't it, that at the moment of our creation it makes more sense to use a different measure of "time"? Check out A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking - it's a really cool book.

I'm surprised that people are so confident about what they know or know that they don't know about Gd. Like I said before, we can't understand Him but we can define Him. For example, some of us cannot understand calculus at all, but we can still define it. How? Well, at the very least as "that thing I don't understand." Very broad I know, but it's all we can say with any confidence right now. Same thing with Gd. There follows no obligation to thank Him, Mr. X (that's using some outside moral code to guide your relationship with Gd which you can't do, you would only need to thank Gd if He told you to, ie if you believe He made that code you follow), no ideas about creating rocks or how Gd lives, all we can say at this point is that He is (ie exists but realize that this word is being used inaccurately because it's a human term) something I don't understand.

Well, if that's the case, the question (the free will one) collapses. How can I even ask how I have free will if Gd "knows" the future? I don't know what it means to say that Gd knows, I can't even say "Gd knows the future" because knowing is an all too human phenomenon. I don't doubt that Gd has some form of awareness (another bad word to apply to Gd but what else can we do?) of the future, but He also said we have free will. That means we do have free will, and that He does know the future, and the two do not contradict, ie, somehow, in some way we do not understand, Gd's "knowledge" of the future does not contradict our having free will. This is not admitting a paradox, it's saying that there is no paradox but that we can't grasp how it is that there's no paradox. This is the Rambam's answer at the end of Shmoneh Prakim. It's the only one I've heard that really solves the problem. I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan of Jewish philosophy. I wish there was some guidance in school though from people who know it better than I do, though.

I have a spiel on the other part of Digital's question, but it will have to wait. I hope I remember it. :rolleyes:

[Digital Messiah]

well this convo is going really well, i also want to know in a couple sentences, "why you belive in G-D?" and/or "Why you belive god gave us the torah and all that?"

i belive in god and all the jew stuff because people much smarter and wiser than me have, might be a crummy answere but, there you go.

[CptCatz]

well this convo is going really well, i also want to know in a couple sentences, "why you belive in G-D?"

i dont

and for your answer of "because people much smarter and wiser than you have"...well thats because those people all those years ago had nothing to base their questions on. now we have scientific answers to base our questions on.

[kiyara]

Well I would have to say that i beleive in God b/c I was brought up that way, and now that I have the ability to choose whether to or not, well its actually not even a choice for me, b/c its so ingrown that i do. i know i may only actually think about Him/acknowledge him when I need help, but knowing that something is there with me in the oddest way and seeing everything i do, and knowing my thoughts and feelings without having to talk them out in each persons own "language" is very comforting. If I wouldn't beleive in God, I would have so many questions that science couldnt answer for me, b/c if it was just discovered, i feel like it was not real in the begining.

[lost33]

i feel like when pple say that G-d doesnt exist science has all the answers etc how could this really be true, i mean where did it all begin there has to be a start and i dont think science has made up an answer for us yet i eman ya sure you can say the big bang created the earth and the universe but wat created the big bang and wat created wtvr was around before the universe? IN my mind the only logical explanation for all this is G-d, it seems ilogical to me to say G-d does not exitst