He gave his opinion/belief and I gave mine.

You are telling me that I need to respect his (which, I think I did. I didn't say not to believe it, I just showed him my own belief/reasoning), yet I'm the one attacking someone? No. I'm giving my own beliefs, and you are telling me that I shouldn't, but other people can?

This is why I stopped going to hillel, as I mentioned in another thread.

dance hall drug- i didnt say "dance hall drug serves as a pretty good indicator of what happens when people become lax with sexuality." i said modern-day society. fortunately, the world has people who have the discipline that you have. but from the very way you formulated your post its clearly indicated that society is not anywhere close to your level of discipline. that lack of discipline doesnt come from anything but being lax in the matter. thank goodness, you, dhd, are an exception to the society; if only there were more like you, the society would become acceptable.

not all touching leads to sex, but some does. think of it- what else would a guy use to try to get a girl to do something stupid OTHER THAN an "innocent" massage. tv shows are filled with guys "pickin up" girls by sneakily and subtly touching her, hoping for it to lead to something else.

its not touching alone that has lead society to where it is now. its mixed along with the way people talk, dress, think, etc.

if everyone could have the control that you, dhd, have, there would probably be no prohibitions. but, how many 20 year old virgins are there? let alone the males.

i'm happy to say that there are no orthodox-Jewish porn websites, magazines, or explicit talk-radio shows. seems like the prohibitions may have a slight positive effect...

Guys, everyone here is a long-standing and amazing member of our community. Every single person posting here deeply respects each others opinions, and stands for meaningful values in his or her own right.

somtimes we use words when writing online that sound harsher to the reader than we meant them to sound.

MissAY is our old member 'Strawberry_Blond' (as she recently shared in a seperate post, and she just created a new SN b/c she did not remember her pwd for her old one [btw, we can reset that 4 u!]).

Dance Hall Drug, u know that TheLockers.net is no Hillel house, and that we love your voice and values, which are such a key part of the insight and vibe of our community. And I am sure MissAY feels the same way - i just don't think she meant for her words to be read with the sharpness that they came across with. Am I right, MissAY?


If I can weigh in here a bit, the reality is that there is wisdom on both sides of this discussion. It is not entirely accurate to say that 'touching does not lead to sex', but perhaps that touching does not *necessarily* or *always* lead to sex. b/c touching is actually the only way to get to sex, right? after all, few people just jump to sex without any lead in at all... (thus CoolDudeMan's point)

but Dance Hall Drug shares a concept of a person's inner values being their guide, and that while we have our desires and passions, we also have the ability to rule over them and not let them rule us. We, as beings blessed by God with free will and the ability to make concious choices, have both the power, and perhaps the responsibility, to recognize that which is sacred in both our personal lives and in the world around us and to respect those things. it is a great person who has such strength, and such a person promises great gifts to the world around them and the things he or she will choose to involve himself/herself in! O:-)

When you really think about it, CoolDudeMan and Dance Hall Drug stand for the same value of integrity and the ability to draw personal boundaries where they believe, according to their own religious and/or personal compasses, those values should be respected. you each are drawing the line of sacred at different points on the field. but both of you share a respect for the sacredness of intimacy, and the importance of knowing where you wish to draw the lines in preserving that experience.

i posted way back in the beginning of The Lockers on shomer negia and why the sages put the line where they did -- that thread is here:
http://www.thelockers.net/forum/show...?p=123#post123

And here are two other cool posts I put up on Jewish attitudes towards sex in general...
Torah’s Concept of Sex, Part I: http://www.thelockers.net/forum/show...6&postcount=10
Torah’s Concept of Sex, Part II: http://www.thelockers.net/forum/show...7&postcount=11



All three of you are amazing members. Our community is great for our differing voices, and our ability to listen to and learn from each other...

i love getting the chance to learn about coolmandudes lifestyle through the lockers! do all orthodox jews not touch the opposite sex until theyre married?

hmmm that qs not so simple to answer.

firstly, "orthodox jew" is not 100% clearly defined. there could be some people who would consider themselves orthodox, yet not keep shomer negiah, while others (including me) wouldnt consider those people orthodox; rather, i'd call them "conservadox." obviously, these words are not so bona-fide. but my definition (which i think is the most sensible and black-and-white) is anyone who puts in constant conscious effort to perform all commandments- do's and don'ts- in the Torah.

so abstractly, all orthodox Jews keep shomer negiah.
but of course, just like within any group of people, there are people who fall short of whats expected. like my high school was an orthodox school, so they dont allow any inter-gender touching at all. yet there are TONS of kids in my school who would touch girls just like anyone else.

so, a safe thing to say is that an orthodox organization (camp, school, etc) would prohibit it, but that doesnt mean that every person who comes from an orthodox family doesnt touch girls. (this is all predicated on my definition of orthodox.)

there is also simply uninformed Jews who consider themselves orthodox. for example, my parents are clearly orthodox, and everything about our house is orthodox, but since my parents lacked an education in these matters, they didnt prohibit me from touching girls. but i learned in school and camp not to.

question for cooludesman-you said you've been shomer negiah for five years-does that mean you werent before? b/c as someone who's family, school, and basically entire social environment is completely orthodox and definitely shomer negiah, i'm wondering how different it is if you decide to be shomer negiah b/c you think it makes sense and it's something you feel is right for you, and on the other hand, if you're forced to by social standards.

i became shomer in 8th grade- i was not before. since my parents didnt have the best religious education, they didnt really know if shomer is a real law or not, so even though our house is orthodox, they happened to have never brought shomer negiah up.

"and definitely shomer negiah" is not so accurate- see my last post.

about being forced by social standards:
in my community, even though its considered orthodox, many high-schoolers are not shomer negiah. this is because of their parents (some ill-informed, some leaning towards conservadox) or simply because of their hormones. what clearly separates my "modern orthodox" community from "ultra orthodox" chareidim (you know- they guys with the black furry hats and super-long hair by the ears) is that they distance themselves from anything that may potentially spiritually hurt them- internet, tv, radio, and some of them are even more extreme. most of them realize that theyre acting beyond the cal of duty, so i dont believe anyone should reject their lifestyle. but the modern-orthodox believe that when there is a thing with potential benefit and detriment (internet, for example. like there are tons of great websites like this one, and there are millions of awful websites like, well, you know) we take on the challenge of taking advantage of the benefit while avoiding the danger. ultra-orthodox never hang out with the opposite gender. like thats unheard of. but my community does- while being very strict that no one touches each other or speaks inappropriately. we also use the internet, obviously. in those communities, the circumstances cause pressure to be shomer. but in my community, the institutions (camps, schools, etc) make sure that theres no contact, but the pressure level is pretty low. think of it- no one- not even parents can always monitor their kids to see what theyre doing at all times. if someone in my communtiy is shomer, its a personal choice- whether its influenced by school, parents, or themselves.

thats sounds pretty cool. since my community is probably what you call "ultra orthodox", what you're describing really sounds great. in the ultra ortho world, there are some teens who hang out with the opposite gender, but they're known as rebels by the community and even by themselves. I think it sucks that because i've grown up in this community and environment, i find myself disliking and sometimes not keeping certain halachos and am made to feel like a rebel and a messed up kid while teens in your world don't feel pressured and judged if they dont do these things. It's like, i want to want to be a good Jew. but i don't and am kinda sick of faking it. sucks really.

i wouldnt say that theres no pressure. it depends on the family/school and what the "rebel" is doing. like if someone in my community would smoke pot and make out with non-Jewish girls, im sure the school and family would crack down.

and think of it- its not good for there to be no pressure. teens are teens. and we do stupid stuff. the truth is whoever is pressuring is (usually, i think) doing it for the right reasons. they just want whats best for others. the problem is twofold: either theyre wrong- they don't know what's best for that person, or (i think this is the most common) they dont know HOW to pressure properly- they push too strong, failing to realize the correct, slower way to successfully bring the pressured person to see the truth.

also, you should take care to differentiate between chumra's and halacha. if there's a HALACHA that you don't like, its a much bigger deal than a chumra. look for someone to talk to- maybe a rabbi who'd understand, or anyone in the community. cuz there ARE halachas that ARE sometimes difficult and aggitating- like shomer negiah, like kol isha... but thats how Hashem made it. mitzvot are supposed to be tough sometimes. thats how we show our devotion to Him.